Kickstarter project - battery recovery/rejuvenation

[pugslyyy]

So I came across this - http://kck.st/1dnbVfn

As someone with several very expensive AGM batteries in addition to normal starting batteries, I'm intrigued by anything that can extend the life of lead acid energy storage devices.

What do you think - viable product / snake oil / don't know?

[video]https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/revolt3000/save-a-battery-save-the-planet-kickstart-revolt300/widget/video.html[/video]

 

[4x4junkie]

Looks like just a fancy battery desulfator to me (uses high-frequency, high-current pulses to break up hardened lead sulfate on the battery plates and returns it to acid solution). I've read differing opinions about the effectiveness of desulfators on a few forums for off-grid & solar, though I think a lot of people are trying to use them on batteries currently connected into a circuit, which from some recent limited experience I have with a home-brewed unit, this limits their effectiveness (they seem to work best on a battery/battery bank that doesn't have external wires connected to it).

Many argue that if you properly charge your batteries, sulfation will never become a problem. I think we all know though how "easy" it is to "properly" charge your battery every single time you use them, especially ones in a vehicle with the imprecise voltage regulation of an engine alternator and limited engine run times that often fail to fully absorb-charge a battery that's been deep-cycled. Use of a desulfator on the battery a few times a year certainly is not going to hurt it (in spite of the differing opinions I found, most agreed desulfators were not harmful to batteries).

Plans for my homebrew unit are here (requires it be used in conjunction with a trickle/float charger), though there are also a number of commercially-made units available you can buy starting around $25 & up. I cannot say whether the ones you buy work better or worse than the one I built though (so far I've recovered the long-unseen green eye indicator on a couple older batteries that were showing signs of reduced capacity, though I've yet to run any capacity tests on them).

 

[DiploStrat]

I have become a great believer in three things:

-- Modern truck alternator/regulators produce the required high voltage and include battery desulphation/equalization cycles.
-- Solar panels and controllers produce almost constant charge (thus completing the charge cycle started by your truck alternator) and also include proper float cycles to keep your batteries happy while parked/camped.
-- Bidirectional automatic charging relays (when used with proper - BIG - wires) assure that the starter batteries are tended when you are parked/camping. The great failing of a key controlled relay is that it is open when you are on solar or shore power.

My experience, so far, indicates that these play very nicely together.

 

[pugslyyy]

My house and truck batteries are completely independent, unless I manually combine them (big blue sea 1, 2, 1+2 switch). When the motor is running there are two alternators, one for house and one for truck.

However, when I'm sitting, the house battery is charged by the solar but the truck battery isn't. I'm wondering whether I should put the batteries in combined mode when stored to keep the truck batteries topped off. What do you think?

 

[craig333]

I also use a marine switch on mine. I keep them combined normally. I originally planned on using the switch to disconnect the truck batteries when camped thus making sure they'd never get low and be available for starting the truck. However, what I've found so far is that with the solar panel and my limited needs, I don't use enough power to worry about it. Keeping them all in play means the camper battery also gets the benefit of the alternator charging while driving.

 

[wrcsixeight]

I've used a friend's batteryminder 12248 desulfator/charger on several different batteries over a few days time and the batteries really only performed as they would as if any other charging source had charged and then kept them at float voltages for the same amount of time. I think the charger is good, but I want more than 8 amps. My friend bought the Minder to "restore' several batteries he had destroyed by letting them sit. It did not work, and one Optima that was still in its plastic wrapping( and thus still brand new in the owner's mind) almost went into thermal runaway as he refused to believe his magical desulfator was not going to restore the abused ignored battery, and he kept restarting the charger time and again after bleeding off surface charge.

I am now using 3 Mini series Blue seas Manual Switches. One for the ignition/Stock circuitry, one for all loads, one for solar. This allows me to use either battery as house or starter duty. I can direct the solar to either battery independent of load, and this is nice in the acceptance stage where the cycling fridge will knock the voltages below the setpoint. Of course any switch set to Both combines the batteries regardless of the settings of the other switches.

For years I had been using a single lower amp rated Guest manual switch for isolation, but I believe the contacts inside had worn out. I was getting measurable voltage drop across the switch and it was getting warm when the alternator was maxed out with depleted batteries and an upgraded charging path. I believe it wore out from switching under load so often over 13 years. I tried to open it up for inspection but it resisted as the guts were sealed and I decided my time was better spent elsewhere. The new switches do not get warm, and the starter seems to have more gusto as well, and voltage drop across the switch is barely detectable, with my tools.

My opinion about battery restoration with desulfators:

I don't believe it. Any battery which has been abused is not going to have shedded plate material fight gravity, reattach itself to the plates and restore lost capacity.
I think in some cases it might help to return the semi hardened sulfate into the electrolyte, but perhaps a normal equalization overcharge could have done the same thing. I think there is a very narrow window where such a device is capable of its claims. I think effort is better spent in prompt recharging of batteries that have been discharged, rather than buying some special charger that makes wild claims of being able to counteract batterycide caused by ignorance.

 

[4x4junkie]

I completely agree a battery that has shedded material from it's plates is pretty much finished, nothing you can do about that. A layer of hardened sulfate still on the plates though should in theory be returnable to the electrolyte.
My experience with the unit I built is still ongoing, but the fact I was able to return the green eye to two batteries that hadn't shown it for a number of years shows there must be something happening in there.

I'll run some tests on the batts after another week or so and see if their capacity actually has improved or not and report back (before I was getting maybe 30% of their capacity before their voltage would drop out). I've got maybe $5 into the desulf unit so if it doesn't work, that, and a little of my time is all I'm out.

 

[DiploStrat]

My house and truck batteries are completely independent, unless I manually combine them (big blue sea 1, 2, 1+2 switch). When the motor is running there are two alternators, one for house and one for truck.

However, when I'm sitting, the house battery is charged by the solar but the truck battery isn't. I'm wondering whether I should put the batteries in combined mode when stored to keep the truck batteries topped off. What do you think?

The short answer is, "probably." Keep them combined as long as there is a charge coming in on the camper/house battery side. (Normally defined as a voltage between 13.2 and 13.5v.) Open the switch when the charge stops and the voltage drops below about 12.7v.

You can do this manually, of course, but Blue Sea make two 500A rated automatic battery combing relays. Other options are the Magnum Smart Battery Combiner (which I use) and the SmartBank which is not yet for sale in the U.S.

As craig333 notes, the center of gravity has shifted. In the old days, the camper battery was smaller, subject to much greater discharge, and had no separate charge source. (Think a second battery to run a cooler in a Jeep.) Thus the imperative to protect the starter battery. Now, the camper battery is more likely to be much larger than the stater battery and, if you are practicing good management, never discharged below 50%. In my case, I have 140Ah of starter and 600Ah of camper. Even discharged 50%, I have twice as much camper battery.

Also, in many cases, your solar charge controller may be a generation or two more sophisticated than your truck's voltage regulator. All good reasons to focus on "battery combining" as opposed to "battery isolation."

In any case, intelligent control of a combining switch, whether by you or by automation, obviates the need for the various trickle chargers that many install to tend their truck batteries.

The rules of battery charging have not changed, but the way that you implement them has.

 

[pugslyyy]

The short answer is, "probably." Keep them combined as long as there is a charge coming in on the camper/house battery side. (Normally defined as a voltage between 13.2 and 13.5v.) Open the switch when the charge stops and the voltage drops below about 12.7v.

You can do this manually, of course, but Blue Sea make two 500A rated automatic battery combing relays. Other options are the Magnum Smart Battery Combiner (which I use) and the SmartBank which is not yet for sale in the U.S.

As craig333 notes, the center of gravity has shifted. In the old days, the camper battery was smaller, subject to much greater discharge, and had no separate charge source. (Think a second battery to run a cooler in a Jeep.) Thus the imperative to protect the starter battery. Now, the camper battery is more likely to be much larger than the stater battery and, if you are practicing good management, never discharged below 50%. In my case, I have 140Ah of starter and 600Ah of camper. Even discharged 50%, I have twice as much camper battery.

Also, in many cases, your solar charge controller may be a generation or two more sophisticated than your truck's voltage regulator. All good reasons to focus on "battery combining" as opposed to "battery isolation."

In any case, intelligent control of a combining switch, whether by you or by automation, obviates the need for the various trickle chargers that many install to tend their truck batteries.

The rules of battery charging have not changed, but the way that you implement them has.

I like the idea of the smart battery combiner with the high/low voltage cutouts. My question is will it open when the other charge sources are running (like the alternators?) - I would only want it combined when solar was the only source of charge.

 

[DiploStrat]

The SBC has an adjustable 15v or lower high voltage disconnect. The Blue Sea has a fixed 16v high cut. Despite my worries, the high cut doesn't really seem necessary and indeed, when it is very cold, my 15v high voltage disconnect is actually too low.

Leaving aside the question of why you would NOT want the batteries combined when the alternators are running, the answer is that they will combine whenever the voltage rises above the combine level and separate whenever it drops below the disconnect level.

If you wanted to be clever, you might be able to wire a second, normally closed relay on the earth lead of the primary relay. Trigger that relay from an ignition source and you can force open the combining relay when the engine is running. (This relay would not have to be big or expensive as it will not carry current, just has to be rated for long term use. In this case, you would need to use a "dumb" combining relay along with a "smart" logic controller. This is what I do with the Magnum SBC and a monster Blue Sea relay.