New Brakes all around for my DII

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
Ahhh! the soothing screech of metal grinding on metal as you frantically pump the brake pedal during your approach to the crowded intersection. After 45,000 miles I decided that just maybe it was time for new brakes, not just pads but the whole shebang on all four corners of my 2001 Land Rover Discovery II.

Now, many early model DII owners have become accustomed to pumping the brake pedal, but this had gotten ridiculous. I did my research on OEM vs aftermarket and I thoroughly confused myself. I considered that Land Rover Genuine replacement brake rotors and pads tend to wear out faster than some of the aftermarket products. I also considered that I was replacing the vehicles second complete set of brakes which were EBC rotors with Ferodo pads.

Close to my wit’s end I decided to call Ho over at Expedition Exchange. He owns a DII and he has tried several combinations of different rotors and pads including LR Genuine and aftermarket. After a bit of discussion with Ho and some more research, I decided to use DBA rotors and Land Rover Genuine pads.
IMG_9915.jpg

IMG_9910.JPG


The rotors by Disc Brakes Australia are slotted, cross drilled and they have a special venting system built into the front rotors that they call Kangaroo Paw. Essentially the slots help eliminate the affects of off-gassing while the cross drilled holes work with the ventilation system to reduce the operating temperature of the rotor which helps to reduce brake fade.
http://www.dba.com.au/2006/videoclip.asp

Wait! Don’t get yourself started, I know this is often a debatable issue, the use of slotted and cross drilled brake rotors on anything other than a professional race car, right.

Well the way I see it is that the DII is a heavy vehicle to begin with, now add a winch bumper, winch, armor, expedition cargo and slightly oversized tires with increased rolling mass and the braking begins to build up some serious heat. In addition, the vented and cross drilled rotor system costs as much if not less than the genuine parts system so there is really no downside. Even if this choice costs the same as genuine parts it will most likely last longer and therefore prove to be less expensive. Any edge that can help defeat the “soft pedal” of early model DIIs is beneficial.

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/dba/

Best of all is that I have noticed a considerable improvement in braking performance. Some of this could be attributed to the fact that my previous brakes were life threatening, but I also remember what the previous system felt like when new and the DBAs with Genuine pads is no doubt better. I no longer have to pump the system as much, and rolling downhill onto three wheels feels much more comfortable and secure!

By the way, the soft pedal issue in early model DIIs is a brake caliper issue not rotors or pads. Aside from upgrading your early model DII calipers to 2004 models you can upgrade your combination of rotors and pads and install stainless steel brake lines which expand less than the OEM rubber lines.


Brian
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
After tearing open the package and drooling over the shiny new rotors the first step was to get the old ones off. I had never replaced rotors myself before and my research revealed horror stories of "welded on" rotors that require implements of destruction to remove. With this in mind I prepared myself with every tool I could imagine needing including a 15" puller but fortunately I never needed anything more than my dead-blow mallet.
IMG_9923.JPG


It also gave me the opportunity to clean and inspect the entire area.
IMG_9949.JPG


With both old and new rotors side by side it was obvious the EBC rotors needed replacing, you can hardly see their original slots.
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I don't like squeaks so I am a big fan of the grease!
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Now, my favorite part was calling Ho and EE and questioning that he sold me the right parts. He really enjoyed that! I expected the rotors to slide rite on but it turns out that you need to clean up the studs and then use the lugnuts to help press the rotors on for a nice secure fit.
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So far the DBA+LR Genuine combination is working well and I'm happy. There is a bit of squeak in extremely dusty conditions but they have proven to work well right out of water and extreme inclines as well as quick emergency stops.

Brian
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
I actually put them on a few weeks ago and so far they have been great. So much that I don't even think about them which I think is good for brakes!
In addition there is little brake dust.

Brian
 

lwg

Member
I have the DBA rotors you have, can't remember which pads, not genuine though. I will eventually replace my pads with genuine though as I hear it's the best option to help keep the three amigos in check.

I desperately need to swap calipers to the later models as mine are uber-weak offroad. I can slam the pedal to the floor and they truck won't lock up the wheels at all, even with the ABS light on... I am constantly double pumping. Anybody got a good deal on some '04 calipers??? ;)
 

lwg

Member
Larry,
Fresh new brake fluid along with Stainless Steel brake lines helps.

Brian

I've actually got both of those. Rover brakes kind of suck! Eventually I'll upgrade the calipers as I keep hearing it's worth the money and time for the swap. Probably switch back to LR Genuine pads when I do as I think I'm wearing mine down since I keep having to add more fluid. The Traction Control on the D2 can sure eat up some pads!
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
Hmm, adding fluid because of the pads wearing down? Not to sure on that one, I think you may have another issue such as a leak, which would also make sense of your severe braking issue due to air in the line from the leak.

I have never run into the need for additional brake fluid as the pads wear down.

It may be worth poking around for a leak.

Brian
 

lwg

Member
Actually as you wear down your pads its normal to have to add brake fluid. The pads get thinner and thus the piston(s) move closer together requiring additional fluid to displace the empty space.

I'm not really adding it very often, generally just make sure it isn't too low. Yesterday when I was changing the oil I took a closer look and noticed it was in the middle of high and low.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Wait! Don't get yourself started, I know this is often a debatable issue, the use of slotted and cross drilled brake rotors on anything other than a professional race car, right.

Um, even professional race cars don't use slotted or drilled rotors. The necessity for slotted and/or drilled rotors has been obsoleted for quite some time since pad material has advanced so greatly that off-gassing is pretty much eliminated.

They are really only sold in the aftermarket to try and upsell customers something they don't need and charge higher prices. In reality they can lead to reduced braking performance as you have reduced the contact area of your rotors, reduced the mass and therefore thermal inertia, they don't help cooling, and can lead to prematurely worn pads, and failed rotors.

Rally cars do sometimes use slotted rotors, because the slots can help clear mud from the brakes. This is a consideration for us as well. But the claims of better stopping on the street is bunk, and drilled rotors don't help braking in *any* way.

In fact, you'll find most reputable brake manufacturers who do manufacture drilled rotors to satisfy market demand for bling, actually specifically state that their drilled rotors are "not for racing use" because of the cracking issues, and I've heard talk of tracks actually banning their use because of the safety issues.

Sorry, I know Expo tries to be non-confrontational, but I have to put this out there since this post is promoting the use of these rotors.
 

Ruffin' It

Explorer
Just a couple quick thoughts about the cross-drilled rotors from someone who spent over a decade building and racing cars. They do cool more quickly and assist in providing the hot gases that can build up between the pad and rotor a place to escape to. They also act as a cheese grader on your pads and have the added benefit of warping and/or cracking much more easily. When I used to use them (and I only used them in endurance races or on a track with a lot of long straights with hard turns at the end) I would change pads and rotors every second or third race weekend. If you want them to last do not park or do a water crossing if they are hot.

You are going to want to inspect them (front and back sides) for cracking on a regular basis as a cross-drilled rotor provides a lot of excitement when it breaks from too many cracks in between holes. Part of the fun when they break is the new and interesting noises you will hear, but most of the entertainment comes from the fact that they almost always break under hard braking and usually on a wheel that is carrying the bulk of the braking force (front wheels do about 70% of the braking depending on speed, weight, CG, suspension compliance of vehicle and direction of travel. So, if under heavy braking you lose a front rotor, you lose around 35% (give or take) of your braking force, not 25%. You also tend to take an un-anticipated turn away from the wheel making the new and interesting noises. That turn limits your tires ability to stop the car since they are now required to dedicate some of their available grip to the turn (google "traction circle" and you should find a better explanation) and unloads (due to centrifugal force) the one remaining front tire that is helping you slow down, resulting in further loss of braking ability. You might even want to have them Magna-fluxed once in a while if you are the cautious sort (I am the cautious sort). I'm not trying to scare you (or anyone for that matter), I just know that most people selling drilled rotors either don't know this stuff or don't share it with the people buying them. Drilled rotors are fine, as long as you pay attention to them and don't expect the same sort of life you see from a normal vented rotor.

My feeling is that if you are using your brakes consistently hard enough to get them hot enough to warrant drilled rotors, you should either be downshifting for those long down grades or take it a little easier on the throttle in traffic. One good way to tell is looking at your old rotor. If it is blued from heat, get drilled rotors. If not, a set of EBC Green (or any one of several companies that make good stuff) pads should do just fine. I often used EBC pads with stock rotors on my MGB and RX-7 race cars and never had a problem with excessive fade.

You should also do a complete system flush as that sort of heat will build up air in your lines from boiling fluid and cause mushy-pedal.

I see them as mostly bling (no offense intended, just offering the perspective of someone who used to use them regularly), even on lightweight race cars.


Tyler


Ahhh! the soothing screech of metal grinding on metal as you frantically pump the brake pedal during your approach to the crowded intersection. After 45,000 miles I decided that just maybe it was time for new brakes, not just pads but the whole shebang on all four corners of my 2001 Land Rover Discovery II.

Now, many early model DII owners have become accustomed to pumping the brake pedal, but this had gotten ridiculous. I did my research on OEM vs aftermarket and I thoroughly confused myself. I considered that Land Rover Genuine replacement brake rotors and pads tend to wear out faster than some of the aftermarket products. I also considered that I was replacing the vehicles second complete set of brakes which were EBC rotors with Ferodo pads.

Close to my wit’s end I decided to call Ho over at Expedition Exchange. He owns a DII and he has tried several combinations of different rotors and pads including LR Genuine and aftermarket. After a bit of discussion with Ho and some more research, I decided to use DBA rotors and Land Rover Genuine pads.
IMG_9915.jpg

IMG_9910.JPG


The rotors by Disc Brakes Australia are slotted, cross drilled and they have a special venting system built into the front rotors that they call Kangaroo Paw. Essentially the slots help eliminate the affects of off-gassing while the cross drilled holes work with the ventilation system to reduce the operating temperature of the rotor which helps to reduce brake fade.
http://www.dba.com.au/2006/videoclip.asp

Wait! Don’t get yourself started, I know this is often a debatable issue, the use of slotted and cross drilled brake rotors on anything other than a professional race car, right.

Well the way I see it is that the DII is a heavy vehicle to begin with, now add a winch bumper, winch, armor, expedition cargo and slightly oversized tires with increased rolling mass and the braking begins to build up some serious heat. In addition, the vented and cross drilled rotor system costs as much if not less than the genuine parts system so there is really no downside. Even if this choice costs the same as genuine parts it will most likely last longer and therefore prove to be less expensive. Any edge that can help defeat the “soft pedal” of early model DIIs is beneficial.

https://www.expeditionexchange.com/dba/

Best of all is that I have noticed a considerable improvement in braking performance. Some of this could be attributed to the fact that my previous brakes were life threatening, but I also remember what the previous system felt like when new and the DBAs with Genuine pads is no doubt better. I no longer have to pump the system as much, and rolling downhill onto three wheels feels much more comfortable and secure!

By the way, the soft pedal issue in early model DIIs is a brake caliper issue not rotors or pads. Aside from upgrading your early model DII calipers to 2004 models you can upgrade your combination of rotors and pads and install stainless steel brake lines which expand less than the OEM rubber lines.


Brian
 

Ruffin' It

Explorer
Not to step on toes (really), but you shouldn't have to add fluid to compensate for brake wear. The fluid already in the reservoir makes up for the small amount of extended travel. Any significant drop is fluid level is from a leak or someone siphoning it out while you are sleeping. A healthy brake system should only require fluid to be added during the bleeding process.



Actually as you wear down your pads its normal to have to add brake fluid. The pads get thinner and thus the piston(s) move closer together requiring additional fluid to displace the empty space.

I'm not really adding it very often, generally just make sure it isn't too low. Yesterday when I was changing the oil I took a closer look and noticed it was in the middle of high and low.
 

Brian McVickers

Administrator
Staff member
Thanks,
No one is being confrontational, everyone is just stating their opinions and sharing thier experiences. Nothing ever wrong with that, it's what makes ExPo a great place.

This thread is meant to document and outline the modifications that I am making to my vehicle. The products I have chosen, the reasoning behind my selections and the installation process along with ongoing functionality and performance updates. I'm not saying that everyone should go out and buy the products that I do nor am I saying that the products are the only option.

I selected the DBA rotors because they are a well manufactured product with a proven track record. I have read about and spoken with several satisfied users including some who are constantly in and out of water crossings. I have heard lots of recommendations for them but I have never heard anyone write about specific 1st person experiences or tell me definitively about all of the theoretical problems associated with drilled and slotted rotors happening with these. That's not discounting those problems either.

There are at least a dozen threads on ExPo that debate about such rotors, here is a good one, http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13205&highlight=drilled+rotors, and there are hundreds more throughout the web. It certainly was not and is not my intention for this thread to become another one although I guess it's perfectly fine if it does.

Personally I don't buy the "bling" argument when it comes to our types of vehicles, for one you can hardly even see the rotors. Also, I have a lot of faith in the experience and knowledge of the vendor where I purchased these.

I certainly don't think that these rotors were the wrong decision and only time will tell if they were the best choice, and even then it will be difficult to measure.

Brian
 

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