Quick question about dual battery setups and the use of breakers I

Rezarf <><

Explorer
I have amassed nearly all the parts needed to begin an installation of a dual battery system on my 100 series Land Cruiser. I wanted to ask a few questions before buying my last few components. I know that the main lead (+) battery cable from the starting battery to the auxiliary batter should be either fused or have breakers at each end to prevent a fire in case of a short. How do I determine what amperage breaker/fuse to buy? I assume it must be a little higher than the alternator output? my longest run will not exceed 8'.

Also, is there a size gauge cable that is most recommended without purely paying for overkill? I am thinking 2 gauge is plenty between the batteries, isolater and fuse panel.

Thanks in advance.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
Fusing at or slightly above that of your alternator rating is fine.

2 AWG should be fine too unless you also have it set up to switch both batts in parallel for winching, then you'd want to use 0 AWG minimum (which would also require fusing it at something close to what your winch's max draw would be).
 

AndrewP

Explorer
You need an ampacity table. Many on the web. I use this one:

http://assets.bluesea.com/files/resources/reference/21731.pdf


Your fuse/breaker is there to protect the cable. Not your winch and not other devices. With 2 AWG wire assuming you are using good rated wire, 150 amps is about right.

There are advantages and disadvantages to breakers. A breaker can stick on, a fuse has no "on" failure mode. A fuse is more fool proof, but you need to carry spares. Until last year, I always used ANL fuses. More recently, I've been using MRBF fuses. You could also use type T fuses, megafuses, and possibly others.
 

Rezarf <><

Explorer
Thank you for the input. I am going to move forward with 150 amp breakers from Blue Sea to match the rest of the system and use welding cable in either 0 or 2 gauge, I hadn't considered a linked system for winching. I have always had enough power on the one battery for winching but we rarely have mud out here in the west.

Thanks again.
 

Vanaroo

Observer
I tend to "circle around" to figure out the specs. First I'd write down the number answers to these questions:

1) What is the max output of my alternator in amps?
2) If I'm planning to self jump-start through the same wire, what is the amp draw of the starter (discounting inrush current)?
3) What is the maximum voltage drop I want to see? (For this figure, both wire size AND round trip length of run count.)

Then I guess/choose a wire size and run the calculations for voltage drop and check the ampacity tables to see if I can fuse high enough for the draws. If there is either too much voltage drop for question three, OR the ampacity charts won't allow me to fuse it high enough for the answers to the first two questions, then I go up a size and try again (with the calculations). When I get to a wire size that fits both, that's the one I use. For me, in DC systems, it's usually voltage drop that drives an up-size (especially for solar and/or electronics), but sometimes it is fusing (such as in the case of self jump-starting).

As was mentioned above, the protection (fuse/breaker) is typically sized based on the wire (size, temp rating, location, bundled or not, etc.). You are protecting the wire (and thus you and your rig) from shorts. (Sometimes you can fuse once for two things, but typically you fuse trunk wires for their capacity, and then if you need to protect appliances, etc. you do that further down the line with a fuse block or in-line fuse. The ampacity charts will go into more detail as to how large you can fuse a particular wire size. ABYC (boating advisory organization) has standards for many handy things (electrical, fuel, water, etc.) and publishes ampacity tables.

One note is that smaller fuses can make for more voltage drop than larger ones, so if you are, say, fusing your 15 amp solar system 2AWG down wire, don't fuse it for 20 amps, but rather something more like 90 amps (for the wire). (I realize that's not what you are doing in this case though.)

If you have the height, and if you don't have more than 10,000 amps of short circuit current in your battery bank* (unlikely in start bank, but very possible in house bank if it is more than around 250 amp hours), then I like the MRBF's. Because they sit right on the battery post, there is no unprotected wire (that would normally be between the battery and the fuse/breaker).

*This has to do with AIC rating, which can be an important factor in choosing a main fuse that is on a wire coming from a battery bank. AIC is "ampere interrupt capacity." Essentially this is not a rating for the fuse "blow" but rather for the strength of the fuse holder and the body of the fuse. The fuse (or breaker) will not do you any good if the body blows apart or the fuse melts together before it can blow.

An example:

My house bank consists of three Group 31 Lifeline batteries. They have 375 amp hours of storage capacity. To find out what AIC rating I need my fuse type to have, I need to see what the short circuit rating of the batteries is. That's because if there is a short in one of the battery cables, it's not 375 amps that will come out, but rather MUCH MORE power that is stored that can come blasting out. I look on Lifeline's chart and see that each of my batteries has a short circuit rating of 4,257 amps. So with three of them in my house bank, I have a potential of over 12,000 amps (12,771). I look up the MBRF fuses (which I do like) and see that they are rated at 10,000 amps (10,000 amps AIC rating). So I can't use one of those on my house bank. Instead, I go to a Class T fuse, which is rated at 20,000 amps AIC. I do, however, have an MRBF on my start bank, which has less than 5,000 amps short circuit rating. Even though one wire runs right from my house bank to my start bank, since I have the Class T on the house bank, there is no problem having an MRBF on the other end. Once I'm "downstream" of the Class T, I have already satisfied the AIC rating for the house bank and so the fuses after that don't all need to be Class T's.

I hope this wasn't too much information (?)
Vanaroo
 

fireball

Explorer
I have 150 amp fuses on either end of the 2# cable running b/w the dual batteries. It has worked just fine. I have a 150amp BS breaker coming off the dual batter on 4# wire running back to the cargo area for my sub panel.

The responses above are from folks way more intelligent on electrical systems than I am - I just did a lot of reading and searching and can share with you that my system works great! (Except for the stupid DHP marine batteries...the aux battery died and was replaced under warranty, the main grp31 is now no longer holding a charge)

engine bay.jpg

IMG_1448.jpg
 
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fireball

Explorer
One more note.... for our uses the dual battery system was a waste of time and money and weight. The fridge runs off the aux battery which is smaller than the main battery. We don't ever stay parked for more than 2-3 days at a time, so a nice grp31 main battery with a 150W solar system would've been a better way to go for us.

You are out west so may get into more remote/extreme situations, but for us it just isn't really necessary. We are almost always with at least one other family or truck, and we almost always move every few days. So maybe just a quick pause to consider if you really *need* a dual battery. I think somewhere on MUD someone was able to swap the aux battery to be the starter, and use the grp31 to feed fridge and accessories which makes a good bit more sense to me.
 

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