Scout guy needs Jeep help.

truck mechanic

Adventurer
Hey guys, I have a 72 Scout with a factory 258. Runs great, but at highway speed I get valve noise. oil press is good . Anything tipacal things I should look for ?
Thanx for any help.
Paul.
 

truck mechanic

Adventurer
Naw so syn here. I am useing 15w40. Think truck mentalaty, lol. do you think it might be too thick ? I ve never had a problem in my IHs before but they all had bus motors in them.
Thanx for any help.
Paul
 

monele

Adventurer
Hmmm.....You are sure it's valves? I would run a lower weight high detergent oil through once or twice to see if there's gunk built up in the oil passages. (some folks will run ATF through with a cold engine to do this, but I'm not sure I'm on board with that, I think I'd drop in Marvel Mystery Oil first) There are also oil system cleaners (additives) available that would work with a few quarts of cheap oil. For these 2 oil changes I'd go with a 1500 mi interval. IF that doesn't clean it up and quiet it down with your regular oil, I would check oil pump and push rods (I know that means pulling covers and a rocker, but the oil passages could be getting to gunky for good flow) Even if you have good oill pressure it doesn't mean everything is getting enough oil.

Hope you find the problem!!!
 

madizell

Explorer
Running light oils, including MMO and especially ATF, can be detrimental to your engine if you are not careful. Don't run these alone, and never use more than a small percentage mixed with the correct weight of motor oil. Marvel and ATF are not intended to carry the heat and shear loads of a running engine. Damage to rod and main bearings takes only a few moments, and what would you be proving anyway? If your motor needs a flush because of accumulated carbon, there are shops that will do this for you without damage to the engine.

First on the list of things to do is to verify your diagnosis. You believe the noise is from valves, but you also say this is heard at highway speeds, suggesting you don't exactly have your head under the hood when listening to the noise. It is almost impossible to diagnose motor noise from inside the car. If you have excessive valve clearance, you should hear this noise to one degree or another at all operating speeds, including idle, so listen carefully to the engine in your driveway. Rev it up while listening to see if the noise changes or comes and goes. If you can't duplicate the noise while stationary, it is probably not the valves. If you do hear a noise, isolate it. Get a stethoscope for cars. They can be found for under $5. Be certain it really is the valves.

Knocking at highway speeds is more often a timing versus fuel issue than valves. Using the wrong gas, using too hot a spark plug range, or an excessively dirty combustion chamber can contribute to detonation and/or pre-ignition. Timing too far advanced causes pinging, and older vehicles don't control this like the new ones do. Pinging gets louder the more you push the engine, so higher speeds and acceleration loads make pining worse. Ping can occur at idle but is almost impossible to hear.

Even running a motor on unleaded that was intended to run on leaded gas can lead to knock issues that, while it involves the valves, is not a valve issue per se until your valve seats are shot. It is a fuel issue. A '72 Scout should be built to use unleaded, so that should not be a concern, but octane ratings have changed dramatically since your vehicle was built, and the chemicals used to achieve octane ratings are completely different now compared to 1972. You could try some octane booster to see if the noise goes away at speed.

Also possible if you have hydraulic valves (and I assume you do) is a sticking valve lifter, but this is usually only one or two lifters, not the whole motor, and it usually comes and goes or occurs at any speed including idle. If your hydraulic lifters are going flat at speed, which is possible and would cause a lot of valve clatter, you have an oil pump or circulation issue that you should solve fast, as significant loss of oil pressure at speed will kill your engine.

Almost all available engine oils these days are high detergent oils, so looking for a "detergent oil" to "clean" the motor is not going to get you anything you don't already have, and lighter weight oils do not clean a motor any better than heavier oils. Detergent does not add to viscosity; viscosity does not effect detergent action. Back in the early '60's it was a different story. Then you could buy oils with no detergent in them. These days you have to buy certain "racing" oils to get something with no detergent additive package already on board.
 
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monele

Adventurer
Glad Someone with more knowledge posted. I was always leery of the ATF as a gunk remover idea and had forgotten that detergents were a part of the additive pack in modern oils (I am lucky enough to have always found a used cars that seems to be in excellent running order when I get it so I have less experience diagnosing, plus I usually call my Dad who was a mechanic for 30 yrs.)

Every engine has quirks and the oldest I play with on any regular basis is 20 yrs. newer than your scout. Hope you get it back to new!! (I love scouts, I just have too many vehicles to keep up with as it is)
 

hutchman

New member
Just an additional thought.......as you rev the engine with the hood open to listen..........

An exhaust leak can be mistaken for lifter noise very easily. There is a simple way to determine whether your noise is a lifter or exhaust. When you rev the engine, if the tick gets faster but does not get louder, it is a lifter. If it gets louder, most likely an exhaust leak.

I cannot imagine that you could hear lifter noise at highway speeds however. My best guess is it is something else.......FWIW......
 

madizell

Explorer
I would agree that most of the time, lifter noises are not likely to be heard at highway speeds -- as long as the problem is not the general deflation of the hydraulic lifters. That you can hear, but it requires that the oil supply to the lifters is depleted or cut off for several seconds at a time. A cracked supply tube from sump to pump could cause this, but it is pretty rare to see a cracked tube unless someone has been inside the oil pan and either mishandled the pickup or assembled it incorrectly. If it was mis-manufactured, the problem would have shown up long ago.

On the other hand, I did have one pick up tube come loose from the pump (a pressed in unit), which caused oil pick up issues. They usually don't fall completely apart because the clearance from sump to pick up foot is less than the length of captured tube in the pump, but it can cause suction issues due to intermittent air leaks at the top of the tube.

Another problem with an old engine can be caused, over time, by not changing oil frequently enough, or by using older, non-detergent oils (such as the old Valvoline Racing Oil -- my bad). I have had two engines with 70's vintages that accumulated sufficient carbon and sludge on the bottom of the pan to limit or close off the oil pick up, all from using the racing oil for a year or two. In one case, a 1979 Mustang with the 5.0, the engine failed due to lack of oil when the sump simply closed off to the point that the pump could not draw enough oil. Insufficient oil caused a spun bearing. The spun bearing interfered with distribution of oil in the crank galley, and the lifters went flat. That you can hear on the highway. Since the motor was toast anyway, I drove it home, but the noise was painful.

The other was a 1976 F-150 with the 300 I-6. Sludge built up to the point that it would momentarily starve for oil going around corners or on highway on and off ramps (same problem as the Mustang, but a bit less severe). There was so little oil available due to sludge build up that common windage would cause starvation issues. What you hear first is usually flat lifters, which can be heard at speed. There are, however, other clues to let you know if this is what is going on. For example, sludge takes up space or it would not be a problem to start with. When you do an oil change with a carboned up pan, the correct amount of oil added to the motor will give you a reading higher on the dip stick than it should be. If this happens, take the hint and find out why.

I would also add that if you have this kind of accumulated carbon and sludge, detergent oils will not remove the carbon. No oil additive will. We had to get the carbon out of the Mustang oil pan with hammer and chisel followed by a blow torch. Even a parts tank did not touch this stuff. A quarter inch of baked carbon is quite durable.
 

truck mechanic

Adventurer
Thanx for all the help. I can add to this. There is no question in my mind I am hearing lifters. I found today if I keep the rpms up I get lifter noise. Once I let the rpms down it goes away. I am very familer with the inside of engines. What I was looking for is if somthing like cam bearings going bad could caulse a problem like this. At some point the motor was rebuilt, I bought it with a suppsed 20k on it and put it in my truck. Since I started hearing the noise I also find it has at least one lifter bleeding down when it sits for a day or so.I havent put a mec. gauge on it yet but the factory gauge is reading about the same. I guess what I am looking for is there any thing common on these motors that leed to this?
Thanx again Paul
 

madizell

Explorer
Not the cam bearings in my opinion. The lifter bleeding down is due to debris in the lifter cavity keeping the check ball from seating. If one lifter has this problem, quite possibly all of them have it to some degree, and it may be that they are simply not able to maintain pressure at the extremes of the cam lift, and so drift off the lobes a bit. Pull the lifters and inspect them. Inspect the cam lobes for wear. If cleaning the lifters on the inside does not look like a likely cure, replace them with new ones, and at that point, you are probably looking at doing the cam as well. I have not had lifters like yours apart, but have done Ford lifters. Those were not difficult to deal with. Once carbon debris gets into the lifter it is not likely to get out again because the oil flows in one direction only, and the clearances on the outflow side are very tight.
 

madizell

Explorer
Most hydraulic valves are not adjustable. Valve lash should be zero under all circumstances. If uncontrolled valve lash occurs in a hydraulic lifter, it is a sign of lifter failure, most often attributable to carbon debris in the lifter body.
 

madizell

Explorer
Worn valve springs would allow valve float at higher rpm. It is usually not the ticking you hear if the valves float, but the contact between valve heads and piston tops, and it only happens once or twice before the engine won't run. So, possible I suppose, but not likely. I would look into an engine flush before tearing into it.
 

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