Starter noise after replacing clutch?

[katuah]

I posted this on NAXJA but I figure the more ideas the better. I just had my clutch replaced, flywheel was resurfaced. Now when I start it up there's this rattling clacking noise coming from around my starter.

Guy at the shop that did the clutch said it was something in the starter "banging back and forth" and "not disengaging" after it starts up, recommended a new starter. However I put this starter on myself not that long ago and it wasn't making any noise at all until the clutch replacement was done.

It starts up just fine, so I have to think it's something they didn't put back together correctly. (This is why I prefer to do my work myself, at least then if it is screwed up I have no one else to blame, but I dont have the tools to do a clutch)

BTW, 98 XJ with the AX-15 manual. Anybody got any ideas?

 

[Stoked]

Have you looked and made sure it was the starter that you installed orginally, and it didn't get swapped for another while in the shop? Maybe one that was bad so you'd have a reason to come back? Just a wild theory.

 

[Mitch502]

What Stoked said. Although that's something that we all wish wouldn't happen, it could be an honest mistake where they had more than one in the shop at the same time.


Also, could the starter need shimmed? Is tightened down? There are bristles or something that effect the engagement and disengagement as well I think. Also the wiring on it could be loose, not allowing it to disengage all the way? Take it off and inspect. If you can bench test it?

 

[anviljk]

Did you convert the XJ to the AX-15 trans? Only reason I ask is because I converted my 93' BMW from an automatic to a manual and the starter would rattle, almost sounding like a super charger whine, when first starting. This was due to like the tech said the starter not disengaging from the flywheel. If in fact it is a transmission swap, try a starter for the manual transmission. If not, well then I say leave it as it is. I drove mine for years without any issues, I honestly wouldn't worry about it.

 

[katuah]

Original AX-15 to the Jeep, not a swap.

Looks like the same starter, but not sure how I'd know completely. No other XJs in the shop then.

Raining too hard to go check bolt tightness, alignment, etc. this morning. I'll have to hope it clears up.

Oh, and anviljk, it is a serious loud rattle that continues like crazy the whole time the vehicle is on. Doesn't stop.

 

[thethePete]

Sounds like your starter is not disengaging. Did they just do the clutch, or did they do the flywheel as well?

Either the starter took a **** (unlikely), or it's improperly installed, and is binding on the flywheel and staying engaged. If you don't get it fixed soon you *will* need another starter, that rattle you're hearing is your overrun clutch in the starter spinning too fast as it tries to keep up to your now running motor.

Could be as simple as loosening up the starter bolts, wiggle it around to make sure it's in its home properly and tighten back down.

 

[Mitch502]

Sounds like your starter is not disengaging. Did they just do the clutch, or did they do the flywheel as well?

Either the starter took a **** (unlikely), or it's improperly installed, and is binding on the flywheel and staying engaged. If you don't get it fixed soon you *will* need another starter, that rattle you're hearing is your overrun clutch in the starter spinning too fast as it tries to keep up to your now running motor.

Could be as simple as loosening up the starter bolts, wiggle it around to make sure it's in its home properly and tighten back down.

I would assume that there is potential to damage the flywheel as well. Fix it asap.

 

[thethePete]

The potential is definitely there, because it can partially disengage and bugger up the teeth on the ring gear. I certainly wouldn't be driving it like that.

 

[katuah]

I've been updating my NAXJA thread on this, there are some pics over there too.

I pulled off the starter, and it appeared to be disengaging correctly in terms of the gear having motion. I took it to Auto Zone, they tested it and said it checked out as being just fine. I had some confusion on the bolt sizing (was NOT expecting an SAE on one and a metric on the other!! Thought I would have remembered that from when I changed it before, but then again I was in kind of a hurry then...) but they were correct in the end. I bolted it back up good & tight, but the noise is still there.

The gear teeth do NOT show bare metal which I would have expected if they were being "eaten."

The shop had the flywheel resurfaced. I am thinking they didn't get the bolts in tight. Can I fix this easily myself or am I going to need to take it back to them? I hate arguing crap like this....

 

[thethePete]

Yeah, sounds like a flywheel problem then. I have seen issues with them not being torqued to the crank properly, and OEM would have never used a metric and SAE bolt to hold the starter on. Sounds like the shop is a bunch of hackers. **** like this pisses me off as a professional mechanic.

If the teeth aren't eaten and it makes that sound running, regardless of the clutch being pushed in or not (might change slightly but the sound is still there) it's got to be the flywheel. That's the only part in there that is in motion while the truck is in neutral. Get under there while someone is sitting in the driver seat, have them start it in neutral, try pushing the clutch in and out, and listen to the bellhousing to be sure the noise is coming from there. It should have an inspection cover too that you may be able to remove and inspect for play while it's running.

The issue with the starter misalignment usually comes from it not going in the hole square, so by taking it out and reinstalling it you should've corrected the issue if that was it. If the starter tested good that means it should be doing what it should, and if it's installed properly it won't be binding against the flywheel.

Now here's the ****ty news:

You probably won't be able to fix this yourself if you farmed out the clutch job in the first place. You have to basically do the job over, since the flywheel is the first thing to go back on during the repair. The transmission and clutch will have to be removed and inspected, and hopefully the flywheel didn't get trashed from running loose.

Without having looked at the vehicle; if it is the flywheel your best case scenario is that they can just drop the trans and clutch, tighten the flywheel if it's free of damage, reinstall everything and move on. Worst case you're into a new clutch and flywheel, and hopefully (although very unlikely) no damage was done to the bolt holes in the crank.

I hate that you should have to go back there for a simple clutch job too. This kind of **** is why mechanics have to fight so hard to be respected. **** happens, but if there're two different sized bolts holding your starter on, I question their work.

 

[katuah]

Actually, the two different sized bolts are OEM. Yes, it's apparently true. The chrysler engineers were on crack for this one I think.

I had read on one thread where it might be possible to pull off the inspection cover and get in there enough to tighten the flywheel bolts. But I don't think I'm going to do that. They screwed it up, so they get to fix it.

 

[thethePete]

Dodge does some rediculous stuff, so I guess I'll buy the two different sized bolts for a nickle. I don't recall doing a starter on a Jeep, so I can't say for fact either way, I just can't imagine them using 2 different standards. Unless one was a 13mm (1/2) and one was a 14mm (9/16) or something, so they would've both actually been metric, or SAE.

Yeah, even if you can get in there to tighten them, you can't inspect for damage (and if you've been driving it at all, the flywheel holes may be ovalized), and there's no way to guarantee sufficient torque. Remember, the thing wasn't bolted down tight in the first place... And exactly. The shop screwed up a job you paid them to do, it's up to them to make it right. Besides, knowing the design of a flywheel and clutch assembly, I think the people are refering to the bolts that hold the pressure plate to the flywheel, not the ones that hold the flywheel to the crank. Either ones could be suspect.

Good luck, let us know how this all plays out.

 

[katuah]

Well, apparently it really was the starter. The small center gear would not stay retracted. An electrical bench test like those run by the usual auto parts store counter guy supposedly would not catch this. I exchanged the starter (lifetime warranty) and all is now well. Clutch is nice & smooth. Wish I could say the same thing about my transfer case but that is another story.

 

[Weeds]

I have seen many rebuilt starters that will spin on the test bench when newly rebuilt, but will not turn the engine over. If you are using the starter to start the vehicle in gear while 4-wheeling they will not last very long.

In my opinion, not to offend, the life time starters appear to be the worst.

Glad you solved your problem.

 

[katuah]

The replaced starter was originally purchased over the counter and installed in a parking lot, it was the best of the ones sold by the nearest parts store. Seems like that is often the case - if we knew it was going to fail, we'd order the good replacement stuff!