SavageSunJeep
Adventurer
To keep from hijacking Roberts thread...
And in reply to the post previous to my last post in Roberts thread.
Joe, many grains of truth in what you say, HOWEVER not all is a bad or ugly as you make it out.
Support and other Avenger issues:
Weak at best, but not because they are bad guys. In fact I like the folks at Avenger much more than the folks at KB. [call KB, tell them you have an Avenger or another brand and ask a question :shakin: ]. Avenger has difficulty providing any support due to the fact they have NO idea of what parts they supplied with your SC unit.
I had a injector go bad. Yes they have a lifetime guarantee but in order to send you a new one they have to know what that sent you in the first place...cannot get there from here. In order to do that you need to have some record keeping procedures and standardization of parts...NOT at Avenger.
I ended up buying another full set from: http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsJEEP.asp If you need injectors for your rigs this is the guy to get them from!
Power:
Yep KB puts out more power than Avenger. Am I impressed? Not really, the KB is an optimized ECM unit the Avenger is not. YOU can do same to the Avenger if you wanted to, but if you did, why not just buy the KB to begin with.
Is the KB faster, quicker, able to leap taller buildings...yea, sure, why wouldn't it be. Since I don't race mine, nor care to, nor do I want to muck around with my ECM I'll keep the simplicity of the Avenger. Sitting on the side of a trail a 100 miles from home with a ECM that has scrambled the code is not my idea of fun. Nor is shipping my ECM back and waiting on them to re-flash and ship back again. [ECM's are computers, computers crash, muck with the code and they may crash more often...US retired computer engineers know all too well]
Key point to remember is the the KB and Avenger are the exact same unit (imported from Sweden as I remember).
Boost: Depends on where you live as in altitude above sea level. At sea level I can hit 6 lbs of boost. I run a boost gauge and would not run a SC without one.
Fuel requirements: Many factors affect how a auto responds to fuel. Several of the most important are octane rating, compression ratio and temp of intake air. We can control octane and the temp of the air.
A boost of 6 lbs is not enough to push the compression ratio into the detonation range unless the fuel is leaned out, hence larger injectors and a re-calibrated ECM...this is especially true at WOT when the Jeep goes into closed loop operation. AND because of the way the ECM operates WOT causes leaning and it is ALSO when you hit full boost, not a good combo.
I don't run premium fuel because I DON'T have too, it is NOT needed. Sure KB/Avenger etc say to but that CYA, protect you own butt...tell the end user regular is ok and later they send you a bill for their engine that detonated [the ECM on the 4.0L is NOT a very sophisticated system]!
Stay out of WOT and reduce http://www.savagesun4x4.com/hood_vents_for_tj.html your under-hood temps, thus reducing your intake temp...run regular. http://www.savagesun4x4.com/jeep_cooling_electric_vs_me.html http://www.savagesun4x4.com/oem_7-blade_tj_fanclutch_in.html
KB has to rework the ECM in order to get the engine to work with a 160 degree thermostat...this software engineer will tell that the KB boys are REALLY mucking with the code in that ECM. I prefer other less invasive and simpler ways of making things work.
Drive belt. The Avenger runs a OEM belt, KB does not!
Re-calibrated ECM, 160 thermostat, non OEM drive belt, and you are on a 2000 mile, 2 week + trip down thru Baja...YOU make the call.
My Avenger has sit atop my 4.0L since April of '03 and for 60k miles with no issues. That said if my rig was a "in-town", DD I would not hesitate to buy the KB. But for my purposes I like the simplicity of the Avenger.
Lawrence asked:
"So I am facing a few decisions... 1) ditch my front axle, find a Rubi one and get 5.13 gears F&R and ARB... 2) Keep the 4.88s, ditch my wheel and brand new tires, and get some 33" tires instead... or 3) Keep the 35s and 4.88s and add a supercharger.
I am leaning toward Option 3, but I don't know if I am overlooking something and could cause other components to work harder and self destruct. A couple of people have mentioned that I would be putting too much strain of my transmission if I go with option 3."
I cannot speak to the AT, but 35's and 4:88's is a sweet combo. Add to it a SC and it only makes it better MUCH better IMO. In fact my next tire buy will be 35's down from 37s to move me even further into my power band for pulling my trailer on the highway. Take a look at this chart: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/rpm-gear_chart.html
The KB/Aven SC are NOT full on. They are a demand based system. No demand from the engine, no boost to the engine. Simple as that. That said YOU CAN control the boost. BUT you cannot control it without the proper tool set. BOOST GAGUE! No BG, and you are not in control, get one!!!!!
Additionally the SC is a variable boost meaning hp/torque increase based upon the amount of boost. Consider it RARE that you put much added stress on any of your components.
And in reply to the post previous to my last post in Roberts thread.
Joe, many grains of truth in what you say, HOWEVER not all is a bad or ugly as you make it out.
Support and other Avenger issues:
Weak at best, but not because they are bad guys. In fact I like the folks at Avenger much more than the folks at KB. [call KB, tell them you have an Avenger or another brand and ask a question :shakin: ]. Avenger has difficulty providing any support due to the fact they have NO idea of what parts they supplied with your SC unit.
I had a injector go bad. Yes they have a lifetime guarantee but in order to send you a new one they have to know what that sent you in the first place...cannot get there from here. In order to do that you need to have some record keeping procedures and standardization of parts...NOT at Avenger.
I ended up buying another full set from: http://www.fiveomotorsport.com/Injector_SetsJEEP.asp If you need injectors for your rigs this is the guy to get them from!
Power:
Yep KB puts out more power than Avenger. Am I impressed? Not really, the KB is an optimized ECM unit the Avenger is not. YOU can do same to the Avenger if you wanted to, but if you did, why not just buy the KB to begin with.
Is the KB faster, quicker, able to leap taller buildings...yea, sure, why wouldn't it be. Since I don't race mine, nor care to, nor do I want to muck around with my ECM I'll keep the simplicity of the Avenger. Sitting on the side of a trail a 100 miles from home with a ECM that has scrambled the code is not my idea of fun. Nor is shipping my ECM back and waiting on them to re-flash and ship back again. [ECM's are computers, computers crash, muck with the code and they may crash more often...US retired computer engineers know all too well]
Key point to remember is the the KB and Avenger are the exact same unit (imported from Sweden as I remember).
Boost: Depends on where you live as in altitude above sea level. At sea level I can hit 6 lbs of boost. I run a boost gauge and would not run a SC without one.
Fuel requirements: Many factors affect how a auto responds to fuel. Several of the most important are octane rating, compression ratio and temp of intake air. We can control octane and the temp of the air.
A boost of 6 lbs is not enough to push the compression ratio into the detonation range unless the fuel is leaned out, hence larger injectors and a re-calibrated ECM...this is especially true at WOT when the Jeep goes into closed loop operation. AND because of the way the ECM operates WOT causes leaning and it is ALSO when you hit full boost, not a good combo.
I don't run premium fuel because I DON'T have too, it is NOT needed. Sure KB/Avenger etc say to but that CYA, protect you own butt...tell the end user regular is ok and later they send you a bill for their engine that detonated [the ECM on the 4.0L is NOT a very sophisticated system]!
Stay out of WOT and reduce http://www.savagesun4x4.com/hood_vents_for_tj.html your under-hood temps, thus reducing your intake temp...run regular. http://www.savagesun4x4.com/jeep_cooling_electric_vs_me.html http://www.savagesun4x4.com/oem_7-blade_tj_fanclutch_in.html
KB has to rework the ECM in order to get the engine to work with a 160 degree thermostat...this software engineer will tell that the KB boys are REALLY mucking with the code in that ECM. I prefer other less invasive and simpler ways of making things work.
Drive belt. The Avenger runs a OEM belt, KB does not!
Re-calibrated ECM, 160 thermostat, non OEM drive belt, and you are on a 2000 mile, 2 week + trip down thru Baja...YOU make the call.
My Avenger has sit atop my 4.0L since April of '03 and for 60k miles with no issues. That said if my rig was a "in-town", DD I would not hesitate to buy the KB. But for my purposes I like the simplicity of the Avenger.
Lawrence asked:
"So I am facing a few decisions... 1) ditch my front axle, find a Rubi one and get 5.13 gears F&R and ARB... 2) Keep the 4.88s, ditch my wheel and brand new tires, and get some 33" tires instead... or 3) Keep the 35s and 4.88s and add a supercharger.
I am leaning toward Option 3, but I don't know if I am overlooking something and could cause other components to work harder and self destruct. A couple of people have mentioned that I would be putting too much strain of my transmission if I go with option 3."
I cannot speak to the AT, but 35's and 4:88's is a sweet combo. Add to it a SC and it only makes it better MUCH better IMO. In fact my next tire buy will be 35's down from 37s to move me even further into my power band for pulling my trailer on the highway. Take a look at this chart: http://www.savagesun4x4.com/rpm-gear_chart.html
The KB/Aven SC are NOT full on. They are a demand based system. No demand from the engine, no boost to the engine. Simple as that. That said YOU CAN control the boost. BUT you cannot control it without the proper tool set. BOOST GAGUE! No BG, and you are not in control, get one!!!!!
Additionally the SC is a variable boost meaning hp/torque increase based upon the amount of boost. Consider it RARE that you put much added stress on any of your components.
Last edited:
. Point being at WOT you can get pre-det easy and fast. You best bet for controlling this is your right foot. I can go full boost and still not go WOT.