Wheel Spacers good or bad?

Allen Bosely

Observer
On a 110 with 255/85 16 tires on Wolf wheels with 2 3/4" back spacing.

Would 1 1/4" wheel spacers put more strain on the axels than running wheels with 4" back spacing? Or be any less strong?

Part the reason for using Wolf wheels is there strength, so would not want to put spacers on if they caused me to lose any.

I have read both that that spacers are no problem at all and that the weaken the drive line. But at the time it didn't really apply to my situation so didn't read in depth about them. Yes, No?

Allen
 

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
I can only answer with wisdom that has been passed on to me but not by any experience or technical knowledge of my own: I have heard you should not run spacers on rims with backspacing. Spacers allow you to run rims without backspacing.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
I’m not an engineer or expert on this but here is my train of thought on this.

Ideally I think you want the center of the rim to be centered between the inner and outer bearing for load bearing. It would be an easy thing to measure the rim width, measure the backspacing and calculate exactly where on the spindle the load is being applied (distance behind the mounting surface).

If you push the tire outward using an adapter, spacer, or after market rim the load may shift outside the wheel bearings and create a cantilevered load. I'm not sure how much is too much.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
stevenmd said:
I can only answer with wisdom that has been passed on to me but not by any experience or technical knowledge of my own: I have heard you should not run spacers on rims with backspacing. Spacers allow you to run rims without backspacing.

Steve

Backspacing is the distance from the mounting surface to the inner edge of the rim. I've never seen a rim without backspacing. Are you certain on the terminology. I have question marks bouncing around in my head right now.
 

DCH109

Adventurer
Spacers will put extra strain on the bearings period.
the father out you move the wheel the more stress you put on the bearings.

That said there are a lot of people who use them without any issues.
 

stevenmd

Expedition Leader
Martyn said:
Steve

Backspacing is the distance from the mounting surface to the inner edge of the rim. I've never seen a rim without backspacing. Are you certain on the terminology. I have question marks bouncing around in my head right now.
Martyn, you are absolutely correct. I should have clarified "rims with more backspacing than stock" from whatever vehicle we are talking about. Usually we talk about a rim having backspacing if it is different than a stock rim. Good catch and good call for clarification!:bowdown:
 

Allen Bosely

Observer
If the total amount of back spacing with spacer and wheel (4") is equal to the back spacing of commonly used wheels.

Does it matter if the BC is obtained via spacer and wheel ie. 2.75" Wolf wheel and 1.25" spacer for a total of 4" or if I use a wheel with 4" BS?

The reason is Wolf wheels are Heavy Duty and reasonably priced but have from what I understand is only 2.75" BC and to use 255/85 16 tires I need around 4" BS to not lose turning radius.

Allen
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Allen Bosely said:
If the total amount of back spacing with spacer and wheel (4") is equal to the back spacing of commonly used wheels.

Does it matter if the BC is obtained via spacer and wheel ie. 2.75" Wolf wheel and 1.25" spacer for a total of 4" or if I use a wheel with 4" BS?

The reason is Wolf wheels are Heavy Duty and reasonably priced but have from what I understand is only 2.75" BC and to use 255/85 16 tires I need around 4" BS to not lose turning radius.

Allen

If you are saying that the stock rims have 4" of back spacing, and you can achieve the same back spacing on the Wolf steel wheels by pushing them out with 1.25 inch adapters, then the answer is the end result is the same. Theoretically the load is being applied at the correct place.

Before you order up 1.25" adapters measure the length of the studs and make sure they are not longer than 1.25". If they are you either have to shorten them or get thicker spacers.
 

cruiseroutfit

Well-known member
A wheel with 2.75" backspace in conjunction with a 1.25" spacer would give you 1.50" of backspace, not 4". Depending on your axle, it could be asking for disaster. Its not at all uncommong for Toyota axles to have 1.75" combined backspace (3.75" BS wheels with a 2" wheel spacer), however it ultimately places more strain on the knuckle bearings, wheel bearings and steering components. Other issues such as roll center, inclination angle and scrub radius are all affected as well.

tech-backspace.gif


Now a 4" BS wheel with a 1.5" spacer (effective BS of 2.5") would distribute nearly the same loads as a wheel with a 2.5" BS. However you then introduce more failure points into the system.

All that aside, would I run them? The newer wheel spacers are pretty dang reliable, they clock everything so that the spacer itself bolts to the hub/axle and in turn the wheel bolts directly to the spacer. Never seen one fail myself, I can say I've seen alot of them in service... I can think of one that has been running on the highway for 5+ years and who know how many miles without an issue.
 

cruiseroutfit

Well-known member
One last thing. Wheel spacers may not be legal in your state. For instance Utah does not allow wheel spacers used only to gain track width. If they are used to both space and adapt (ie 6 lug to 5 lug) your OK.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
cruiseroutfit said:
A wheel with 2.75" backspace in conjunction with a 1.25" spacer would give you 1.50" of backspace, not 4". Depending on your axle, it could be asking for disaster. Its not at all uncommong for Toyota axles to have 1.75" combined backspace (3.75" BS wheels with a 2" wheel spacer), however it ultimately places more strain on the knuckle bearings, wheel bearings and steering components. Other issues such as roll center, inclination angle and scrub radius are all affected as well.

tech-backspace.gif


Now a 4" BS wheel with a 1.5" spacer (effective BS of 2.5") would distribute nearly the same loads as a wheel with a 2.5" BS. However you then introduce more failure points into the system.

All that aside, would I run them? The newer wheel spacers are pretty dang reliable, they clock everything so that the spacer itself bolts to the hub/axle and in turn the wheel bolts directly to the spacer. Never seen one fail myself, I can say I've seen alot of them in service... I can think of one that has been running on the highway for 5+ years and who know how many miles without an issue.

Kurt

You are 100% correct. As the adapter is bolted on to the hub face it pushes the entire rim outward by the thickness of the adapter. So you effectively reduce back spacing when using adapters.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
I see there is lots of confusion about this topic. Part of the problem is that you are talking "backspacing" which is a really bad term to use, because it is not accurate enough for the calculation we are wanting to make. The problem is that we really don't care too much about the backspacing, what we really want to know is the "Offset".

Offset is the distance between the centerline of the rim, and the mounting face.

windowslivewriterwheelcustomization-bc60customwheels-graph11.gif


The wheel bearing system was designed not with backspacing in mind, but rather offset. That is, the most important aspect in all this is the distance between the centerline of the tire and the wheel bearings. Contrary to popular belief, the wheel bearings are rarely centered in the wheel. This would be desirable, but it's practically impossible to achieve given all the things that have to fit between the wheel and the bearings (ie: hub, caliper, etc.)

So, the vehicles are designed with a given distance between the wheel centerline and the bearing. This does create a torsional load on the bearing, but it the whole system is engineered to withstand it. The problem occurs when you push the wheel center further out away from the bearing. This increases the torsional load on the bearing beyond the design parameters.

You'll quickly see now why talking about backspacing is bad: Lets say the vehicle is designed with a 4" backspacing on an 8" wheel. That would mean the mounting face is exactly centered in the wheel, the offset is zero. If one swapped to 6" wide wheels with a 3" backspacing, one might think they have changed the torsional load. In fact, they haven't. If a 6" wide wheel has a 3" backspacing, then it also has a zero offset. You therefore, have not changed the torsional load.

Now you should see why backspacing isn't the correct term to use, because it does not account for changing wheel widths. Offset does, it really tells us what we want to know: How far is the mounting face of the wheel from the center of the wheel, and that will determine how far the center of the load is from the center of the bearing.

It does not matter one bit if the total offset is achieved via wheel design, or with spacers. All the bearing cares about is how far the load is and thus how large is the torsional load.

That being said, if a vehicle is designed with hubcentric wheels, we do need to use properly designed spacers. On many cars, the vertical load of the wheel is carried not by the wheel studs, but rather by the "keying" of the machined hub shoulder into the wheel bore. The hub fits snugly in the wheel center bore, and the studs are really only being used to clamp the wheel to the hub, but not resist vertical loads.

I believe Rover wheels are NOT hubcentric. But I'm not sure yet. If the wheels are hubcentric, you need to use spacers which have a machined bore on the inner face to fit with the hub shoulder, and then the spacers themselves need to have a machined shoulder on the outboard face.

If your vehicle is designed to be hubcentric and you lose that relationship, you are putting the vertical cyclical (as the tire rolls along) loading on studs which are really only designed for clamping. This could eventually fatigue them, and lead to failure. This is one part of the problem that causes the myth that "spacers are bad".

The other reason is that spacers are commonly used to push wheels outward, increasing the track width, and this increases the torsional loads on the bearings, leading to failure.

If you are using spacers to adapt wheels with too great of a positive offset, and you have the hubcentric design built into the spacers (or not, if not required) then there's nothing wrong with using spacers.

I currently use a thin 4mm spacer on my track car so that the inside of the wheel spokes clear my 4 piston brakes. I've never had a problem.
 
Last edited:

revor

Explorer
Nice Rob!

Rover Aluminum Wheels are Hubcentric, Steel are not. If you where to use spacers on Aluminum Rover wheels they should have the center of the hub mimicked at the wheel end of the Spacer.

I have 15x8 Wheels with 2.5 of negative offset on my Disco and 1.25" wheel spacers (about to narrowest you can do on a LR) that means my total negative offset is 3.75" (very deep dish) I'm using early 110 stub axles/hubs in front for the wider bearing spacing, and my big 35 spline stubs for the rear. I keep an eye on things not troubles in a year. But that car is a toy/local DD. Will I put them on my 110? I'd like to I enjoy the extra track and turning radius the Dico has but in the end what will it do for reliability of the bearing? I've seen a lot of crazy combinations over the years and it seems that unless you go WAY overboard things seem to hold up okay.

I'm still hesitant though.
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
R_Lefebvre said:
I see there is lots of confusion about this topic. Part of the problem is that you are talking "backspacing" which is a really bad term to use, because it is not accurate enough for the calculation we are wanting to make. The problem is that we really don't care too much about the backspacing, what we really want to know is the "Offset".

Offset is the distance between the centerline of the rim, and the mounting face.

windowslivewriterwheelcustomization-bc60customwheels-graph11.gif


The wheel bearing system was designed not with backspacing in mind, but rather offset. That is, the most important aspect in all this is the distance between the centerline of the tire and the wheel bearings. Common to popular belief, the wheel bearings are rarely centered in the wheel. This would be desirable, but it's practically impossible to achieve given all the things that have to fit between the wheel and the bearings (ie: hub, caliper, etc.)

So, the vehicles are designed with a given distance between the wheel centerline and the bearing. This does create a torsional load on the bearing, but it the whole system is engineered to withstand it. The problem occurs when you push the wheel center further out away from the bearing. This increases the torsional load on the bearing beyond the design parameters.

You'll quickly see now why talking about backspacing is bad: Lets say the vehicle is designed with a 4" backspacing on an 8" wheel. That would mean the mounting face is exactly centered in the wheel, the offset is zero. If one swapped to 6" wide wheels with a 3" backspacing, one might think they have changed the torsional load. In fact, they haven't. If a 6" wide wheel has a 3" backspacing, then it also has a zero offset. You therefore, have not changed the torsional load.

Now you should see why backspacing isn't the correct term to use, because it does not account for changing wheel widths. Offset does, it really tells us what we want to know: How far is the mounting face of the wheel from the center of the wheel, and that will determine how far the center of the load is from the center of the bearing.

It does not matter one bit if the total offset is achieved via wheel design, or with spacers. All the bearing cares about is how far the load is and thus how large is the torsional load.

That being said, if a vehicle is designed with hubcentric wheels, we do need to use properly designed spacers. On many cars, the vertical load of the wheel is carried not by the wheel studs, but rather by the "keying" of the machined hub shoulder into the wheel bore. The hub fits snugly in the wheel center bore, and the studs are really only being used to clamp the wheel to the hub, but not resist vertical loads.

I believe Rover wheels are NOT hubcentric. But I'm not sure yet. If the wheels are hubcentric, you need to use spacers which have a machined bore on the inner face to fit with the hub shoulder, and then the spacers themselves need to have a machined shoulder on the outboard face.

If your vehicle is designed to be hubcentric and you lose that relationship, you are putting the vertical cyclical (as the tire rolls along) loading on studs which are really only designed for clamping. This could eventually fatigue them, and lead to failure. This is one part of the problem that causes the myth that "spacers are bad".

The other reason is that spacers are commonly used to push wheels outward, increasing the track width, and this increases the torsional loads on the bearings, leading to failure.

If you are using spacers to adapt wheels with too great of a positive offset, and you have the hubcentric design built into the spacers (or not, if not required) then there's nothing wrong with using spacers.

I currently use a thin 4mm spacer on my track car so that the inside of the wheel spokes clear my 4 piston brakes. I've never had a problem.

I've posted in other threads about the confusion over rim terminology, so I'm in agreement with you on the specifics of what you are saying.

I think part of the reason backspacing is used so often is;
It usually an available measurement from the manufacturer
It's easily measured
It's easily understood

Offset can be calculated when you have the rim width and the backspacing measurements.

A note on hubcentric rims.
To identify if you have a hub centric rim;
First look at your lug nuts, if they have a tapered end it's a good indication you have a hubcentric rim

If the holes in the rim are tapered inwards at the base it's a good indication you have a hubcentric rim

If there is a rim on the hub mounting surface that the rim sits on it's a good indication you have a hubcentric rim
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
Another point to all this, is that when you push the wheel outward, you are increasing the scrub radius. This can do all sorts of wonky things to the front end. It creates torque steer in FWD cars (and AWD cars but to a much lesser degree). It can also increase "tramlining" which is when the vehicle seems to follow ruts in the road.

I've learned to try to keep things as close to stock as possible, since the engineers usually knew what they were doing better than we do. Usually.
 

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