Where to shop and not to

BajaTaco

Swashbuckler
coloradocarlisle said:
Ursaede69 Im sorry for the punch bellow the belt

Thank you sir, for posting that. And thanks for sharing your views and opinions without getting the thread locked up or deleted. I can appreciate your passion for supporting what you believe in, whether I happen to agree with it or not.

And by the way, welcome to Expedition Portal. :beer:
 

flyingwil

Supporting Sponsor - Sierra Expeditions
I contacted REI to see where exactly they stand in regards to this thread... this is the reply I got from them that might shine some light on opinions about REI:

Mike Foley said:
Thanks for your question and providing this opportunity to answer your
questions.

REI supports a balanced use of public lands. We have supported
wilderness designations. We have also supported access to public lands
for recreation, particularly for mountain bikes.

In all cases, we encourage a dialog between the various constituencies
who have an interest land management questions. On a few occasions, in
order to help this dialog to happen, REI has acted to bring groups with
differing interests together to come to a solution that works for
everyone.

We have been criticized by some off-road vehicle enthusiasts for our
support for specific wilderness designations. These efforts do not
preclude that in other areas vehicle access can be appropriate.

Mike Foley
REI Public Affairs
 

bigreen505

Expedition Leader
flyingwil said:
I contacted REI to see where exactly they stand in regards to this thread... this is the reply I got from them that might shine some light on opinions about REI:

Actually I feel more in the dark than ever. He did a decent job of reciting corporate key messages while dodging the question entirely. He is obviously smart enough not to answer a question that will likely get posted on the Internet in a way that could possibly upset any of his constituent groups. However I will admit to being annoyed by the answer.

In the past I have never really had a problem with REI (besides the obvious comparison to Starbucks), but their refusal to answer a simple question openly and honestly does not sit well with me.
 

cruiseroutfit

Supporting Sponsor: Cruiser Outfitters
Though I appreciate the fact he even responded... that is a pretty much a carbon copy of a letter received by another curious wheeler sometime ago. Corprate jumbo designed to appease the masses IMHO. Their track record alone is enough for me. At a time they were supporting SUWA, they were asked to support the Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association, a non-profit group aimed at education and stewardship of public lands... needless to say they didn't think it was up their alley :wavey:
 

Jonathan Hanson

Supporting Sponsor
I had a different reaction to this (to be expected?!). First, it was commendable that Mr. Foley responded. Second, his answer elucidates just what I'd expect the policy of REI to be, which is oriented toward human-powered use of public lands. Complaining that REI doesn't support OHV-favored legislation is like protesting because Yamaha and Polaris don't contribute to wilderness groups.

And he's correct, as has been pointed out before: Just because one lobbies for wilderness - as I do regularly - doesn't mean one can't also support access for four-wheel-drive vehicles, each in its proper place (remember - I own THREE 4x4s!). If every single piece of current proposed wilderness legislation was passed, the percentage of land "locked up" in the U.S. would increase from the current five or six percent to maybe six or seven.

In the end, unless you're one of the fanatics who don't believe there should be any wilderness, or that 4x4s should be outlawed, we're talking about literally a percentage point either way here and there between wilderness, roadless areas, and vehicle-accessible areas. The real threat is development. If wilderness advocates and 4x4 enthusiasts got together to protect open space in its entirety, there would be more of it for all of us.

But I agree with Coloradocarlisle that information is always a good thing to have. You can't make an intelligent choice without it.
 

justfred

Adventurer
Just another victim of industrial disease

I'm just wondering because I haven't seen it mentioned.

Why are we pitting the off-roaders vs the hikers/bikers/environmentalists rather than asking why the government would like to close off public lands to public use, but encourage and subsidize mining, logging, cattle grazing, and private development of that public land. Because that's what I see as the problem - and as far as I can tell, REI and the Sierra Club and so on - that's who they're really up against. Given the choice between seeing a trail closed to 'wheeling' but open to stripmining or clearcutting, I'd choose to have it closed or just walk-in. It's not that I'm against industry - I just think that industry and profit get top priority way too often.

That, and I think boycotts are entirely ineffective. There's another thread on another forum I'm on advocating boycotting Citgo because of Hugo Chavez' remarkes about our "Dear Leader", er, President. (Personally I thought the "smell of sulphur" statement was pretty amusing.) They claimed 7-11 dumped Citgo because of it; but in reality 7-11 dumped Citgo to sell their own gas because of...unsurprisingly...profit!

Letter-writing campaigns are a lot more effective than boycotts. They care more if you say "I shop at XYZ and I want this..." than if you say "I'm not shopping at XYZ anymore because of this...". The former is a loyal customer, the latter is a flaky kook who may never have been a customer.
 

Desertdude

Expedition Leader
I don't shop REI ...my reason? they are clothing size challenged - I feel they are completely size profiling - I am insulted that the best clothes they offer are all in size small - and the color choices all suck - lime green - puckey orange - sewer brown -

[sarcasm alert]

REI needs to close up all the retail stores and make room for more parking lots and roadways - we need more open space pavement...

[End sarcasm alert]
 

bigreen505

Expedition Leader
Desertdude said:
I don't shop REI ...my reason? they are clothing size challenged - I feel they are completely size profiling - I am insulted that the best clothes they offer are all in size small - and the color choices all suck - lime green - puckey orange - sewer brown -

Funny, my sister shops almost entirely at REI for outdoors stuff because she can fit in the kids clothes. That translates into better, more fun colors at a price that is usually less than half the sale price of the adult clothes. Last year she bought a really nice soft shell jacket for about $40.
 

cruiseroutfit

Supporting Sponsor: Cruiser Outfitters
Jonathan Hanson said:
...If every single piece of current proposed wilderness legislation was passed, the percentage of land "locked up" in the U.S. would increase from the current five or six percent to maybe six or seven.

In the end, unless you're one of the fanatics who don't believe there should be any wilderness, or that 4x4s should be outlawed, we're talking about literally a percentage point either way here and there between wilderness, roadless areas, and vehicle-accessible areas. The real threat is development. If wilderness advocates and 4x4 enthusiasts got together to protect open space in its entirety, there would be more of it for all of us.

When you make a sweeping generalization of numbers it doesn't sound too bad... And in some states it might not be, motorized recreations in Utah on the otherhand would be destroyed IMHO...

Total Wilderness Acreage in US:
106,506,635 acres

Total Wilderness Acreage in Utah:
900,614 acres

Proposed Wilderness in Utah by SUWA/Sierra Club et al:
OVER 9 MILLION acres that SUWA's inventories have shown qualify as "Wilderness"

So "by the numbers" Utah stands to lose ALOT, and almost every area targeted by these groups has high value and history to the motorozed community.

Oh, and people have done plenty of complaining to the OHV & auto manufacturers... of course that was done by the other side of the stick.
 

flywgn

Explorer
[Disclaimer: I re-read this post, and it's so long that if you wish to skip to the next post, I'll not be offended. A.R.]

Welcome to ExPo, Carlisle. You'll find a bunch of die-hard, stimulating, off-highway travelers here. You'll not regret having initiated this thread, as controversial as it may be. The good thing is that all of this dialog is good.

I read the entire thread this afternoon and was trying to decide whether to reply then or think about it for a while when Diana, my expedition partner for 46+ years, alerted me that dinner was ready. Knowing that it was to be elk stew (I didn't harvest this one. A friend did.) with parsnips, turnips, our own organically-grown Yukon Gold spuds (I did harvest.), plenty of parsley, and red wine, I decided that my response could wait a bit…maybe two bits.

First of all, I rarely, almost never, boycott a business owing to its affiliations, unless their connections are ethically or morally wrong. Ergo, I have BF Goodrich tires on three of our five vehicles, regardless of…..well, you know. Back in the ‘70s' I did boycott grapes, even though I felt the gesture was fruitless. (God, I can't believe I'm going to leave that pun alone!)

I happen to be one of these persons who does not EVER vote the party line. I've voted for, and campaigned for, Democrats, Republicans, and Libertarians. I choose the candidate, not the affiliation. I look at every road-closure from both sides.

In the ‘70s I joined a bunch of folks in an effort to defeat the paving of a road into the Los Padres National Forest. The decision to pave this track was to enable “more persons to enjoy the backcountry”. I sided with my mentor, Paul Squibb, who wrote a lucid, compelling editorial in the Santa Barbara News-Press (CA) in which he stated, “You can't pave a road to get away from people.”

The coalition against this paving was a mixture of Sierra Clubbers, Auduboners, 4Wders, ranchers, hunters, and just-about-any-kinders.

We lost.

The road was (is) paved. More folks got into the ‘backcountry'.

Jonathan H has already written the solution. If all of us who care for our freedom of roaming the dirt roads of this country don't coalesce, then we will lose the ultimate battle against the pressure of humanity.

It's not a question of losing a specific area to ‘wheeling'- or ‘expedition'-travel. It boils down to people-pressure. We can't allow the constant pressure on our beloved backcountry without some measures set in place to mitigate this pressure. We'll have to have areas set aside where no motorized vehicle is allowed, and some of these areas may be those in which we have enjoyed our past privileges. That's sacrifice.

I don't know. Maybe it's owing to being in my seventieth year. Maybe I'm beginning to see that the “Big Yellow Taxi” travels a two-way street. (Apologies to Joni Mitchell.)

You really “…don't know what you've got ‘til it's gone”…and that goes for both sides. If we lose the wildernesses, they're gone. Period. If we lose the open roads, they will be gone as well. (On this, I have not seen any new roads opened, only existing ones closed.)

I'm willing to sacrifice, though, in order for our granddaughter to experience “wilderness”. If losing some roads that I've enjoyed ensures that Marley, or her children, will have the opportunity to experience that wilderness, then so be it. I'll die with a clear conscience.

We've traveled extensively on dirt roads throughout North America. I could not begin to give you the number of days/nights spent with backpacks, in tents, around campfires, extricating ourselves from predicaments (yeah, my fault). Nor the pounds that we've carried up peaks, into swamps, around pitches. But I will confess to this. If it ever comes to the point when we must make a decision to side with open roads or wilderness, the wilderness will win, hands down.

It's not because we're in our sixties, we've already had the experiences. We want the country to last, and humanity is pressuring us to abandon that goal.

We just returned from a grand four-day trip into the Owyhee Uplands, partly on a BLM “By-Way” and partly on side tracks off this by-way. There were several places where we were forced to put the Xterra (with attached Horizon trailer) through and over some rather testing ruts and boulders that lay in our path. I don't object to rock-crawling as a sport, but with us, it's only part of the trip.

Again, to re-visit the issue, we may have to give up some of our highly-valued backcountry in order for any of it to survive. We don't like it. We'll miss it, assuming we have a few years left in these bones and muscles, but we're willing to see it locked out if it means that it's the only way to keep this country for all those who may wish to visit it in the future.

I asked Ansel Adams once what he thought was the most destructive force on the wilderness, and we had been talking about floods and fires. He replied without hesitation, “People.”

He was correct. The forces that we as a population have placed upon our open lands is enormous.

I can look out my office window here on the Snake River Plain and see BLM. We can leave our driveway and drop onto a track and drive until our fuel tank on the Xterra is empty and never leave public land. That, to me, is amazing. There will be some who might read this post and not fathom what it's like to be able to do that.

If I knowingly purchase materials from a company that has a “steel-trap” mindset, that is does not look at both sides of issues, I hope that I take the time to point out what I believe to be the importance of looking at both sides. I don't always do that, but, more often than not, I do—sometimes much to the dismay of the company. I would not have accepted that rather perfunctory reply from Mr. Foley of REI.

“We have been criticized by some off-road vehicle enthusiasts for our
support for specific wilderness designations.” –

“Yes, Mr. Foley, and what were those criticisms?” I might have replied. Not to be combative, but to be clear on the issue.

The bottom line is that I don't feel that REI's decision to give to any organization (again using the moral/ethical measure) is a reason for not purchasing from them. After all, we eat mostly organic products, but that doesn't preclude us from occasionally purchasing a Big Mac®. :)

Thanks for bringing up this issue. It's an important one.

Allen R.
 

Jonathan Hanson

Supporting Sponsor
Well-said, Allen, and not too long. This is an important issue.

Kurt, I understand what you mean regarding acreage, and that's why I agree we need advocates for motorized use as well as wilderness.

But of course those nine million acres were only identified as potential wilderness, and SUWA et al do not expect to win but a fraction for official designation. Like anyone else involved in any type of negotiation, they start out big.

And remember: From their point of view, they have identified nine million acres of potential wilderness and are faced with a bunch of 4x4 users who are unwilling to give up even one acre. To them that's just as outrageous and inexplicable. I spend at least as much time explaining the need for compromise and multiple use to wilderness fanatics as I do to fossil-fuel junkies.

I'm pleased, but not surprised given the Expo community, that most responses in this thread have more or less agreed that preservation should be the default strategy in deciding public land useage. We can borrow an axiom from the medical profession when deciding how to protect habitat: First, do no harm.

For me as a conservative and conservationist, it's emblematic that the most advanced and industrialized country in the world can also be at the forefront of habitat and wildlife preservation.
 
If its a wetland or an area that needs to be closed to revegitate or for an endangered species then by all means we have to close it. But to merly close trails to close trails will hurt us because as flywgn mentioned people do more harm than anything. I agree to this and have seen it. In my area as trails have been closed more people flock to the trails that are open and then twice the damage is done. Now those trails will have to be closed because of the impact sustained only because by closing one we lost two. It is a cycle.

One thing and maybee Im missing something here but when trails and roads are closed how will people get there. Sure 1 out of 1000 might backpack 60 miles in but some of these areas can only be reached in a resonable amount of time using means other than foot. So to me when I see the deep forest and deep canyons and far off lakes, that to mee is the wilderness and I know I would have NEVER seen much of it unless it was for the motorcycle or truck that got me there.

The only way I see people in the future seeing the great outdoors is from a hiway that winds up through the mountains (I 70 in Colorado) is a good example as to how I view my grandchildren seeing the mountains and that to me is said, so thats why Im the way I am. To some it may be bad but to me if my grandchildren have the oppertunity to see as much of the wild west as I have that would be great but absolutly garanteed they wont. In the future when everything has been closed no one will be allowed anywhere off the beaten path and I will start my stories to my grand children "I wish I could take you here, this is where your Great Grandfather loved to come fish but that road is closed so we cant get there". There is a stocked pond along I-70 I can take you to, although we will have to make a reservation.:(
 

Forum statistics

Threads
186,092
Messages
2,881,890
Members
225,874
Latest member
Mitch Bears
Top