Moabjeeper.com did a winch shoot out. Some good info and surprising results.
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353
http://www.moabjeeper.com/articles/general/listing.cfm?articleID=353
Winch shot out in Moab with suprising results
- Thread starter Beowulf
- Start date
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
If they had've substituted an 8274 for that 9.5, the results could have been very, very different. Of course, that would have been comparing radically different winch designs.
However, my experience with those brands has been pretty much the same. We use our winches up here (a lot), and a winch that is unreliable is just extra weight on the bumper you don't need. Some manufacturers don't seal their products against the elements as well as others, and they fail without so much as a whimper.
I've always liked Warn's winches, from the M8000 to the 8274. Superwinch makes a nice product, but my money is on the safe bet here. Warn has pulled me out of more than one bad situation.
However, my experience with those brands has been pretty much the same. We use our winches up here (a lot), and a winch that is unreliable is just extra weight on the bumper you don't need. Some manufacturers don't seal their products against the elements as well as others, and they fail without so much as a whimper.
I've always liked Warn's winches, from the M8000 to the 8274. Superwinch makes a nice product, but my money is on the safe bet here. Warn has pulled me out of more than one bad situation.
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
For all the hype I heard about their big "competition", I was let down to read their results. Very lacking in actual quantitative data & scientific approach.
How much did the Jeeps themselves weigh? Sounds minor, but a 500 lb difference could change the results drastically... They didn't weigh any of the rigs prior to the competition, at least not that was mentioned. For some of the pulls it didn't matter, but others it surely would. I see they had a 5k lb scale, why would they not have used one capable of measuring the actual loads they anticipated?
Batteries? They made no mention of wether or not the batteries were all at least a consistent size, the difference in winch performance relative to the battery is huge. It could likely be the difference between a fried winch motor and not.
The synthetic rope on the T-Max, was it used with less wraps on the drum than specified by the manufacture? Pretty subjective to DNF a winch because they used it improperly IMO? I'm not a huge fan of synthetic, but used it extensively, I've never seen one pull off the drum when used correctly... and If "Joe Consumer" can't figure out a way to put the rope back on the winch and keep going... "Joe Consumer" surely shouldn't be driving a Jeep
The "temperature after pull"... How do you even begin to compare these?? Does every electric motor design run at the same temp, begin to fail at the samp temp? It is a great benchmark for the SAME motor, but to compare and rank temps between winches, lame. Does Car/Driver use motor temps befor and after a drive to rank a car? Do the winch manufactures publish a temp. threshold at which their winch implodes? They should have measured the output noise too... because that really matters when your rig is hanging on the side of a cliff.
Where in this test did longevity come into play? They ranked the Chicago Elec. winch #3, while acknowledging the fact it was near death. How do you recommend something that you know will fail?
It was a neat idea, and they did a good job given their experience I suppose. I wish another group would do some hard data testing. Honestly after reading all through their test, I have more questions than answers.
How much did the Jeeps themselves weigh? Sounds minor, but a 500 lb difference could change the results drastically... They didn't weigh any of the rigs prior to the competition, at least not that was mentioned. For some of the pulls it didn't matter, but others it surely would. I see they had a 5k lb scale, why would they not have used one capable of measuring the actual loads they anticipated?
Batteries? They made no mention of wether or not the batteries were all at least a consistent size, the difference in winch performance relative to the battery is huge. It could likely be the difference between a fried winch motor and not.
The synthetic rope on the T-Max, was it used with less wraps on the drum than specified by the manufacture? Pretty subjective to DNF a winch because they used it improperly IMO? I'm not a huge fan of synthetic, but used it extensively, I've never seen one pull off the drum when used correctly... and If "Joe Consumer" can't figure out a way to put the rope back on the winch and keep going... "Joe Consumer" surely shouldn't be driving a Jeep
The "temperature after pull"... How do you even begin to compare these?? Does every electric motor design run at the same temp, begin to fail at the samp temp? It is a great benchmark for the SAME motor, but to compare and rank temps between winches, lame. Does Car/Driver use motor temps befor and after a drive to rank a car? Do the winch manufactures publish a temp. threshold at which their winch implodes? They should have measured the output noise too... because that really matters when your rig is hanging on the side of a cliff.
Where in this test did longevity come into play? They ranked the Chicago Elec. winch #3, while acknowledging the fact it was near death. How do you recommend something that you know will fail?
It was a neat idea, and they did a good job given their experience I suppose. I wish another group would do some hard data testing. Honestly after reading all through their test, I have more questions than answers.
MaddBaggins
Explorer
Yeah, what he said ^
dieselcruiserhead
16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
There is an excellent article somewhere online from an Australian rag that took apart the different winches and evaluated them on a number of issues including build quality that had really interesting results. I was going to send to Scott to possibly run in ExpJo as I personally have never seen a truly comprehensive winch test and it might be worth it for them to consider. If anyone has the link post up..
I hate to be something like a "Ford man" but I am a "Warn man" mostly because seldom has one ever let me down. I did have a 70's upright that was a total work horse, but the most (probably rightly so) did finally die. This time I went with the Warn M12000 which I absolutely love, despite its size and weight. It is totally bomber...
Back east in the Vermont mud we used to winch like crazy (a 1 hour winch, three major pulls, just to get up a completely mud covered hill) and we did strain and kill a M8000 on my set up '76 FJ40. That said it still mostly worked, just would make bad clutch slippage noises sometimes.
The idea that they do a lot of winching in Moab is... well.. :shakin: I think over the years I have broken out my winch once there ever to help a taller rig with a steep decent...
I hate to be something like a "Ford man" but I am a "Warn man" mostly because seldom has one ever let me down. I did have a 70's upright that was a total work horse, but the most (probably rightly so) did finally die. This time I went with the Warn M12000 which I absolutely love, despite its size and weight. It is totally bomber...
Back east in the Vermont mud we used to winch like crazy (a 1 hour winch, three major pulls, just to get up a completely mud covered hill) and we did strain and kill a M8000 on my set up '76 FJ40. That said it still mostly worked, just would make bad clutch slippage noises sometimes.
The idea that they do a lot of winching in Moab is... well.. :shakin: I think over the years I have broken out my winch once there ever to help a taller rig with a steep decent...
Robthebrit
Explorer
It would be good to see an independent exp-jo article on winches, an article that is done without reps from the various companies being their. I would like to see numbers published. I for one have never had any luck with Warn winches, i have always considered them bling.
Rob
Rob
charlieaarons
Explorer
I did a calculation a few years ago. For electric winches feet/sec times line pull divided by input ampsXvolts. I came up with 10-20% efficiency. For hydraulic winches feet/sec X line pull divided by psiXgal/min (all numbers converted into compatible units). I came with 90%. The difference is incredible; no wonder electric winches burn out. Needless to say I've used hydraulic winches ever since.
Charlie
Charlie
Robthebrit
Explorer
We have the heaviest trucks imaginable so no wonder a little warn has problems.. I have a hydraulic #20000 super winch, its awesome but I have only ran it on the ground. This winch is about as heavy as a Jeep engine and would literally squash the suspension.
Its never been mounted on the truck, I was always planning on putting it on the 416 Doka but it might very well go on the camper which does not currently have hydraulics, hence the delay.
Rob
Its never been mounted on the truck, I was always planning on putting it on the 416 Doka but it might very well go on the camper which does not currently have hydraulics, hence the delay.
Rob
Scott Brady
Founder
That test certainly had some issues, mostly for a complete lack of controlled variables. Alternators? Batteries? Charge Condition verification? Load testing? Wire length to Battery? Even the lift of the Jeeps affected leverage. Tire tread and air pressure, etc.
For the T-Max test, the testers likely neglected the one layer rule for synthetic ropes. Traditional steel cable is (most often) five wraps, where synthetic should be the entire first layer.
How did the deal with rope length? The winches with fewer wraps on the drum will fair better from a gearing perspective.
Solenoid failures are an issue, no doubt.
I can see that the attempt was made to disguise the lack of testing controls in a veil of "real world", but unfortunately there are way to many variables to make the effort credible.
For the T-Max test, the testers likely neglected the one layer rule for synthetic ropes. Traditional steel cable is (most often) five wraps, where synthetic should be the entire first layer.
How did the deal with rope length? The winches with fewer wraps on the drum will fair better from a gearing perspective.
Solenoid failures are an issue, no doubt.
I can see that the attempt was made to disguise the lack of testing controls in a veil of "real world", but unfortunately there are way to many variables to make the effort credible.
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
When I was doing some testing for Tmax, I gave some serious thought to how to objectively test a single winch. The variables were to great with even a single winch, on a single vehicle, to get objective results in a before/after set of tests over a 6 month test cycle. Without a test cell to remove the questions of load, power supply, and amp draw, and heat dissipation, all your results are subjective. I drew up some plans for a budget test cell, but did not have the resources to build it.....of course, should a certain journal like to perform a series of tests some time in the future, I might be willing to revisit the idea now that my resources have increased (lathe and mill).
It really is alot of work to do a proper test. I spent over 8 hours on each of 2 sets of tests to get some fairly objective results for T-max, along with hours upon hours of field testing. I can confidently say my results were much more objective than theirs....and mine were nowhere near scientific. Theirs are lacking in a big way.
It really is alot of work to do a proper test. I spent over 8 hours on each of 2 sets of tests to get some fairly objective results for T-max, along with hours upon hours of field testing. I can confidently say my results were much more objective than theirs....and mine were nowhere near scientific. Theirs are lacking in a big way.
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MaddBaggins
Explorer
So Brian, whats your opinion of the Tmax?
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
Granted, it was a semi-unique combo but an issue I have seen with MM hydro's is their control valve is apparently set-up to favor the native uses of the PS pump.
Enter a manual trans PSD Ford with a 12k MM mounted to it. Can't winch with your foot on the brakes to extract someone else b/c the valve stack favors the Hydroboost brakes over the winch. P-brake wouldn't hold the truck and we're sitting on a FS graded dirt road so no digging in.
Since then I am of the opinion that hydro winches want their own dedicated pump.
EDIT: Seeing the subsequent posts that I missed on the first pass, it is sad, but I don't read or value magazine tests. The last one that I can recall being done in a truly scientific manner was one Circle Track did years ago on the effects of long vs. short connecting rods.
Enter a manual trans PSD Ford with a 12k MM mounted to it. Can't winch with your foot on the brakes to extract someone else b/c the valve stack favors the Hydroboost brakes over the winch. P-brake wouldn't hold the truck and we're sitting on a FS graded dirt road so no digging in.
Since then I am of the opinion that hydro winches want their own dedicated pump.
EDIT: Seeing the subsequent posts that I missed on the first pass, it is sad, but I don't read or value magazine tests. The last one that I can recall being done in a truly scientific manner was one Circle Track did years ago on the effects of long vs. short connecting rods.
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Robthebrit
Explorer
I have posted this before, but anybody who thinks they are going to successfully use a hydrualic winch from a power steering pump is going to be disappointed when they try. No matter how much money Mile Marker spend on advertising the fact is its not going to work.
The hydrualic pump on my mog is a monster, 10 gallons of oil, thousands of PSI, hundreds liters a minute at rated pressure and my 20,000 super winch is still dog slow,hydrualic winches in general are slower than electric.
Most hydrualic winches will run all day but only if you don't cook the oil which is a very real scenario if you only have a quart of oil.
Rob
The hydrualic pump on my mog is a monster, 10 gallons of oil, thousands of PSI, hundreds liters a minute at rated pressure and my 20,000 super winch is still dog slow,hydrualic winches in general are slower than electric.
Most hydrualic winches will run all day but only if you don't cook the oil which is a very real scenario if you only have a quart of oil.
Rob