Wrangler hybrid?

[ntsqd]

Eh? All this naysaying on a so-called "green" message board? I welcome the electric Wrangler and believe the technology is there to support an off-road habit, as well. It's the marketers and bean counters that won't let them do it right so guys like us get to use it.

There's only one reason the new electric Wrangler won't be good for wheelers...pussification. That's right, to get more money for it, they'll pretty it up and call it the "luxury" version and it won't be a trail-worthy vehicle. We won't see EV in a Rubicon unless they can get $40k for it.

You watch. You'll see.

Having been involved with the development of an EV/HEV this falls short of what they could have done. No doubt that it's a step in a new direction, but I'm not impressed. To me it looks like pandering to the masses instead of building a vehicle at the mass consumption limit of current technology.

I'm still not convinced that batteries are an ideal high density energy storage device. By '97 I was convinced that batteries would only serve to work out electric drive technologies and that fuel cells would eventually take over the storage of energy. I'm not convinced that I was wrong, but the recent problems in fuel cell development sure have pushed out their time frame.

Hub motors have been discussed since the very beginning of electric powered vehicles. As I understand it the problem with them is torque. By the time you gear them down enough to generate the required torque the parasitic losses exceed that of a single reduction gear set coupled with CV joints. I expect that sooner or later someone will figure out a solution, but until then they're not the most efficient way to go.

When talking about Hybrids there is nearly always the debate over the superiority of "Series" or "Parallel" drive design. I've been involved with them since '96 and I still can't keep straight which is which. An argument can be made for calling either arrangement by either name. I prefer to call them "Electrically Coupled" or "Mechanically Coupled."
A mechanically coupled system has the IC and the EM arranged where either or both can supply motive power to the wheels. An electrically coupled system has only electric motive power. The IC generates electrical power, either for immediate use or to be stored in some storage device. Diesel-Electric Locomotives are a prime example of the latter, though they lack any sort of energy storage method beyond inertia.

 

[Root Moose]

I'm not a fan of having the motors at the wheels.

That adds lots of extra unsprung weight which screws up the handling and/or you end up with driveshafts from the chassis to the hub which adds extra complexity and in the case of a 4x4 weakness. Maybe a smaller scale regenerative only hubs could be used in truck applications but for a sports car it would suck to have any extra unsprung weight beyond the minimum required.

What I like about electric drivetrains is that your full torque is available at zero RPM. I can't see it precluding the use of a two speed transfer case in a 4x4 without using a huge/heavy motor and the related packaging issues.

The use of batteries doesn't bother me at all. They would be sealed from the elements like the Odyssey or similar.

Cold temperatures don't seem to affect the hybrids around here. Granted, we aren't as cold as in upper AB in the winter but we have our cold snaps at ~ -30C and I've never heard anyone complain about issues with hybrids.

I too think fuel cells are the way forward but as a stop gap I wouldn't mind seeing these hybrids provided they give a decent range and are affordable and rugged enough.

It will be interesting to see if these hybrids get a tow rating at all.

 

[haven]

I agree that the term "hybrid" is used in all sorts of
imprecise ways. In the case of the Jeep EV, the motive
power is electricity only. The gasoline engine on board
helps recharge the battery. The gas engine is not connected
to the drivetrain. The vehicle can be plugged in to charge the
battery from 120V or 220V house power. Regenerative braking
also helps keep the battery charged up.

The advantages of using a small internal combustion engine
to run a generator include:
-- engine can run at close to a constant speed, making emissions
controls easier to implement
-- engine fuels can be renewable (e.g., ethanol, biodiesel)
-- distribution system for fuel is largely in place

 

[teotwaki]

-----------SNIP----------- They may be great for road going cars, but adding electronics has yet to yield a better Off-road vehicle (including the New Cruiser IMO). ------------SNIP----------

Newest Toyota ATRAC is an extremely impressive black box. Yes, a locker is wonderful and I do have plans for a rear ARB locker install. I've used the ATRAC over the last three years on all sorts of terrain and this is one electronics addition that does work well.

 

[haven]

I think putting the motors in the wheels will work fine for
an offroad vehicle. Here's one example with the motors
in the wheels:

and here's another one:

 

[Root Moose]

Well those aren't exactly consumer grade with wee little parts.

 

[chet]

having the electric motors at the wheels eliminates alot of complexity in that there is no tcase/driveshafts/diff and gets rid of some mechanical drag. the closer the motor is to the end use the better.

And to those wondering why there is no tcase low range... it wouldn't need it. max torque at near zero RPM!!! kinda like a RC crawler. I like it.

 

[ntsqd]

There is no doubt that hub motors can work, but hydraulic hub motors are not a fair comparison. They have the torque, but typically trying to drive such a vehicle at any reasonable hiway speed results in the need for a HUGE hyd fluid cooler (many times it is bigger than the prime mover's radiator) and a large reservoir of fluid.

Agreed, hub motors would be a bad idea for anything sporting. In a truck the gain would be less noticeable.

A reasonable way to look for loses through a CV joint is to measure its temperature delta. How warm it gets is a direct indicator of how efficient it is at transferring power. I know of one Indy car team that did a bunch of testing that resulted in the balls of the CV's being sent out to be ground five millionth's of an inch smaller. That saved them 2.5 HP to the rear tires. Hey, got to give the Engineers something to do!

 

[Root Moose]

Still can't get around the weak CV issue though I don't think.

CVs in the rocks = boom!

For overlanding it would be fine I'm certain. Hell, most of the modern stuff used for overlanding has gone independent suspension anyway.

 

[ntsqd]

Hum, tell that the desert racing Class 1 guys.

The problem isn't the CV's themselves, its the sizing OF the CV's.

 

[86cj]

Autoblog says Chrysler is unveiling a hybrid version of the Wrangler today. Anyone have details?

I am just glad that if I "Have" to get an Electric vehicle, it could be a JEEP AND MADE IN THE USA....................:safari-rig:


40 miles might not seem like much, unless the pump runs dry,the coal plants won't..............

 

[Root Moose]

Hum, tell that the desert racing Class 1 guys.

The problem isn't the CV's themselves, its the sizing OF the CV's.

I'll disagree with this: high speed whoops are light years different from crawling.

I remember when Scott Ellinger tried to make an IFS Toy survive in the rocks. The largest CV he could find was from a turbo 911 and he quickly made short work of them in the rocks.

If CVs could be made to last IFS trucks wouldn't have the bad reputation they do for rock crawling.

 

[PhoenixGSU]

Atleast they are trying to go electric. I still hate the body style though.