Roof Rack dilemna

[SeaRubi]

No offense meant to anyone, but how old are you? Your mindset towards 4-wheeling and exploration definitely changes as you get older, and as your family grows. I maintain that the Maggy will make a lot more sense for you and your wife. "Glamping" as these younger guys like to call it with sneers and jeers actually makes a lot of sense and gets SWMBO out on the trail.

At the worst, just keep the tent and rig a pulley system in a carport or garage to take it off and put it back on. If you sell it you'll regret it.

A friend of mine, a former Chef, has a Maggiolina on an 100 series Land Cruiser with an EZ awning and it's a great setup. Having to operate a hand crank vs. pitching a tent every night in the dark - there's no comparison. That time is better spent chatting, pouring booze, and cooking dinner! He had nothing but praise for this particluar RTT on a recent trip from Seattle, WA to Nova Scotia and back. Their children are in college, now, and the various accouterments with the kitchen setup, RTT, awning, fridge etc. make long distance trips much less costly than seeing the states in hotels and keeps mama happy. My 10 or so other wheeling buddies all love theirs, too. It makes wheeling tight tree lined trails a problem, and there are areas in the PNW where you don't want to go with that much weight (rimrock), but for the most part it works out.

I guess it depends on what your goals are, but basing your decisions off these young fashionistas and a questionable sidehill picture seems pretty lame. Sinuhe, no offense, buddy, but if you have 5~6k of land rover anchoring you from up-hill, you didn't need to unload what must've been 200lbs max off the rack to winch forward. Tell me I'm wrong but you got spooked and chickened out Try that maneuver with two blown tires on the down-hill side, a busted rear diff, a loaded roof-rack, only a hi-lift and strap to belay from up hill, and terrain rocky enough to warrant winching down hill. Oh yeah - it's dark, too. Then we can talk pucker.

In the past I've always been against roof-racks, snorkels, RTT's, and anything else that might suggest that otherwise I was on trail for anything else besides the sheer hell of it, including being top-down in my Jeep in the snow. Talk about low COG. These days I've come around - bring on the fridge, the RTT, the on-board shower, and all the other little things that make it nice for children and high maintenance urban dwelling females. My 15th anniversary comes up in just a few days, I guess I had my share of hard-core. My daughter is 9 and she's had a lot of FUN with other kids, too, in the tree-house enclave perched atop my buddies D90 while out on milder trips. On one trip, they just made their way down the different rigs exploring the RTT's and using FRS radios to coordinate clandestine maneuvers.

At any rate, do what makes sense for you and your overall goals. I live by the seat of my pants in general - impulse to me is usually long-term.

my .02

cheers
-ike

 

[jham]

Your mindset towards 4-wheeling and exploration definitely changes as you get older

This is a generalization. I see two things wrong with it.

1) Everyone does not change their opinions of these as they get older.
2) Even if they do, it may not change as yours has. As you've gotten older, you may see the "luxuries" as pros. I can name you three couples right now (all over 55) who still explore the world as they've always done. Two of them do so with bare necessities, the other couple has ever camping gadget and luxury known to man. But the've done so since their early twenties, their age hasn't changed them.

At the worst, just keep the tent and rig a pulley system in a carport or garage to take it off and put it back on.

Good idea. I'm actually surprised more people don't do this. I should have, now that I think about it.

Having to operate a hand crank vs. pitching a tent every night in the dark - there's no comparison. That time is better spent chatting, pouring booze, and cooking dinner!

This is merely an opinion. To some, pitching a tent in the dark IS time better spent.

I guess it depends on what your goals are, but basing your decisions off these young fashionistas and a questionable sidehill picture seems pretty lame.

Very few people here have had aesthetics as the main point of their post. It seems to me the majority (if not all) of the advice towards Jason thus far as been based on performance of the various racks.

Sinhue isn't the type of person to go through all of that trouble illustrated by the picture if it wasn't necessary. Likewise, Jason is not the type of person to decide to keep a rack because he saw a cool picture of it.

In the past I've always been against roof-racks, snorkels, RTT's, and anything else that might suggest that otherwise I was on trail for anything else besides the sheer hell of it, including being top-down in my Jeep in the snow. Talk about low COG. These days I've come around - bring on the fridge, the RTT, the on-board shower, and all the other little things

I'm the same way. I welcome anything that will make my camping experience more enjoyable, and that includes a fridge, a nice tent, or even a shower. There are times to "rough" it, and when those times come, I simply leave the luxuries behind, grab a two-man tent, some granola bars, a water purifier, and a sleeping bag and hit the trail. For those times when I want a little less dirt and better food, I take some goodies along.

I personally see nothing wrong with either.

 

[SeaRubi]

Jham - guilty as charged :sombrero: good post.

I know a guy in his 60's that drives around a Pinz and has the bare necessities. So, obviously, the statement doesn't hold true for everyone. I would say there's a hefty percentage that does trend towards "glamping" with age, however.

Despite this - there's no reason you can't have both. this stuff is easy enough to take on and off. Keep if for the fam and the easier trips, then for more serious trips ....:roost: I'm happiest it seems when I go home with some kind of body damage.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I wish my back, my family, and everything else would let me wheel like I did when I was in my 20s. The reality is that I can't just bring along a couple bags and a blue tarp for cover and have a happy wife/back/whatever.

So now I look at RTTs, fridges, camp kitchens, and all of the glamping stuff in a different light. Not requirements by any means, but really, really nice to have. Unfortunately, I don't have and of that stuff yet. I do have a list, though...

 

[SeaRubi]

Very few people here have had aesthetics as the main point of their post. It seems to me the majority (if not all) of the advice towards Jason thus far as been based on performance of the various racks.
...

I meant to respond to this bit earlier but was headed to bed. Fashion and aesthetics certainly do play a huge part in selection of aftermarket stuff. I keep seeing repeated calls for him to sell the tent without much reason to do it. There was one post that explicitly called out a competing rack option as an ugly stepchild. I don't think I'm incorrect that there's a perception there with some that having an RTT is just "uncool", so they're masking their preferences with other pretenses.

I see more rationalizing than I do actual specs or technical discussion. There has been mention of features, but little in the way of technical information. For instance, weight capacity hasn't come up even once. Neither have factory load specs for the D1 - which I think is just under 500lbs. In fact, what is here is documented by the OP.

Sinhue isn't the type of person to go through all of that trouble illustrated by the picture if it wasn't necessary.

When faced with a big drop-off, I think he took some extra precaution by unloading the rack, which is fine - I don't think it was necessary - I'm giving him some hell and some ribbing about it. I don't think either you or I were there so it's all just commentary, anyway.

Likewise, Jason is not the type of person to decide to keep a rack because he saw a cool picture of it.
...

So.............I think I will either modify my little trailer to haul the roof top tent or sell the RTT and get a nice ground tent. Or maybe one of the Oasis that doesn't take up much room. Don't know. The wife seems to like the Maggiolina. It is a nice tent, but I agree with what Sinuhe and Jack say.

I think Jack said a truck isn't a treehouse. Sinuhe has offered one instance of pulling off pelican cases on a sideslope of why weight is bad. Both are opinions.

Why have a rack in the first place if you're not going to carry anything up there on it? I think people are grossly underestimating the ability of a LR to sidehill with a weighted roof. A friend of mine used to load up the SD cage of his 110 with firewood, RTT, cases, fuel, water, and all kinds of other crap and it never seemed to bother him - and he had his daughter inside.

 

[rugbier]

Jason,

at the MAR couple of years ago ( when I had my DII with SD rack ) there was a guy with an SD rack and the Sarcofagus RTT you bought *LOL*.

He mounted ( with bolt on clamp - sort of how the D90 roof rack feet attach to the roll cage ) 2 bars accross and then mounted the RTT to them, clean , nice, apparently solid and most important removable.

I've tried to dig the pics, but no success.

( picture the front feet bars of a D90 roof rack )

Gustavo

 

[sinuhexavier]

Why have a rack in the first place if you're not going to carry anything up there on it?

1) A shooting platform.

2) If another truck breaks down, wrecks or whatever the important contents can be loaded onto the rack.

 

[JSQ]

On my Discovery the roof rack is almost always heavily loaded. In fact, a lot of day-trip wheelers have tried to criticize me for having so much weight up top. They were especially vocal when I was on an old mining road which gave way resulting in the truck flopping and a solo recovery. I bring a lot of gear with me. It's no secret.

So I don't criticize the RTT based on weight alone, although they are effing heavy.
My beef with the RTT, beyond how ridiculous they look, is that it's bulk far exceeds it's utility. The RTT is gigantic. It nearly eliminates the possibility to use the rack for anything else at all. The opportunity cost of a RTT is HUGE. It cracks me up that the so-called "Overlanders" are all about purported remote vehicle-dependent travel, but somehow bringing a long a tree house outweighs the need for other equipment that might prove a lot more critical.

Personally I'd rather have 20 gallons of fuel, a second spare tire, a pull-pal, and GRP boards up there. I doubt the people rocking RTTs have those things stashed inside. That equipment is bulky, dirty and difficult to put anywhere but on your rack. And when you need anyone of the extras mentioned above, you REALLY need them.
I've seen a few trucks where people tried to Jed Clampett all that stuff up there along with a RTT. It wasn't pretty and it wasn't safe.

The RTT isn't simple a +. It's also a big -.
I keep seeing it likened to a fridge as a similar luxury. Let's take a good look at that. The fridge is a huge plus. It's keeps food from spoiling for longer, it allows a variety of provisions and it's space efficient. Without a fridge most would have a cooler that is far bulkier. The fridge is a win all around. It adds a lot and takes nothing away.

The advantages are pretty obvious.

The same is not true of a RTT. Its installation has effects well beyond the sleeping arrangement. If we add it to the minimalist who travels in a light vehicle with little weight, little bulk and a low COG he has to give up all the things he has considered in setting up his truck. On the other hand the truck that is fully loaded has to give up much to make room for the RTT. Many items which were deemed essential now must be left behind.
Consider these two Disco2s:

In order to accommodate a RRT, the vehicle in the foreground has to add a rack, add a ladder and the tent and along with it all the weight. He now has bulk, wind noise, poor fuel economy and drastically different handling then before. He's given up a lot.

Now compare the vehicle in the background. He has the rack, but it's filled with pelicans that now must go somewhere else or be left behind. What's in them? Tools, spares and other important items. Do we really want to trade those for the Swiss Family Robinson apartment? Especially on a Land Rover...

 

[sinuhexavier]

Holy smokes I've never seen that pic before... And, yes, Ike I chickened the **** out. When three people that taught me most of what I know about driving in the dirt go from being their normal jovial selves to being as serious as a Texas cop hovering over a drug bust in .2 seconds, it scares ya, just a little bit.

There was quite a bit of puckering going on that trip. Actually the most I've ever had...

This is the other spot I dabbed cotton and wished I had no weight up high...

 

[WoldD90]

Opinions are like A**holes, everyone has one.

The nice thing about a roof rack and RTT, is it give you options. If you are going rock crawling, having a few hundred pound on the roof is not logical. If you are on an expedition, it makes sense both for space, convenience and protection from animals.

Camping with the cub scouts you would not need a RTT, camping in the back woods near the Appalachian Trial, it would make sense. Who wants to be someone's lunch.

Half the fun is getting to use your recovery gear, a few tense moments but everyone was safe. Certainly made the adventure more fun.

I have a removable rack for my D90SW, it is not as pretty as a SD, but it is easily removed and installed and very functional. Stores on some hooks in my garage. For extended trips, it is great put my gear in a few cases, a couple jerry cans and strap everything down. The fridge and etc can go in the back and still leave leg room.

 

[lwg]

The same is not true of a RTT. Its installation has effects well beyond the sleeping arrangement. If we add it to the minimalist who travels in a light vehicle with little weight, little bulk and a low COG he has to give up all the things he has considered in setting up his truck. On the other hand the truck that is fully loaded has to give up much to make room for the RTT. Many items which were deemed essential now must be left behind.
Consider these two Disco2s:

In order to accommodate a RRT, the vehicle in the foreground has to add a rack, add a ladder and the tent and along with it all the weight. He now has bulk, wind noise, poor fuel economy and drastically different handling then before. He's given up a lot.

Now compare the vehicle in the background. He has the rack, but it's filled with pelicans that now must go somewhere else or be left behind. What's in them? Tools, spares and other important items. Do we really want to trade those for the Swiss Family Robinson apartment? Especially on a Land Rover...

I disagree. With my RTT I have eliminated a lot of things in my cabin that took up a lot of space, pillows, sleeping bags, pads, blankets for my wife because she's always cold. These things don't pack very tightly. For the most part I don't use the roof of the vehicle anyways, sometimes for firewood (if I have a rack up there) but that's about it. Not only have I removed a lot of bulky items from my truck but I have a tent that I can setup in under 5 minutes, and put down in under 5 minutes. I personally hate setting up tents so this is a bonus.

Regarding the wind noise and weight, apples to oranges. For your truck with all that equipment on top you experience no more, or no less wind noise than I do with a RTT all the way at the back of the rack. Also the weight is essentially a non-issue. My truck weighs just over 6K loaded, sure the tent is high up and can cause issues when off-camber. But 90% of the time those off-camber issues are problems the driver "feels", not the truck. As mentioned before these trucks easily do over 45*, with weight on top of the truck it's not unreasonable to expect it to do 30-35* which is beyond the "pucker factor" of most drivers.

The mileage argument is just plain funny, I get maybe 15MPG on the highway, I "might" get 1MPG less with the tent. I'm doubting that a difference of maybe 1MPG has ever effected the outcome of a trip from anyone on this board, especially if your travelling with Defenders and their tiny tanks.

In the end this is all based on opions and personal experiences. Each of us probably thinks we know best for ourselves, and we do. Like many I've been down a long path of four-wheeling all the way from the stock range rover that eventually made its way onto 37's to "overlanding" now and what I think it means to myself.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Ok, lets run with this one a bit.

It's not obvious from the photos you posted exactly where you're storing your sleeping bag, pad/mattress and tent. I'm assuming you'd do the logical thing and put them on the roof since they are bulky, and light. I'm not sure if you've actually looked at this, but 4 sleeping bags, pads, and a family tent also take up a crapload of room on the roof (or anywhere you care to put them). My warm sleeping bags take up about a 2'x2' footprint each. The Tent is about 12x36, and the sleeping roll... 12x24 at best. So that's 9 sq.ft. for 1 person, 15 for 2, and 27 sq. ft. of rack footprint space for 4 people. A small rooftop tent (4x4 folded) takes up 16 sq. ft of space, and a large (70"x48" folded) takes up about 24 sq. ft. When you consider most people fold up their sleeping bags in the tent, and there's no need to bring mattresses... the RTT doesn't really take up much room at all. It's a pretty easy to justify luxury.

Even in a best case scenario using my compact bags as an example they pack down to about 12x18. So at best you could get down to 17 sq. ft for 4 people.

The 4 foot length of an RTT leaves a lot of room at the front for your fuel and other parts, the only thing really that might get bumped is the spare tire. That could be easily accomodated on the back bumper if you wanted. And the GRP boards go on the sides anyway.

The only real disadvantage to the RTT is the weight of the thing. But at 110 pounds, it's not actually that much more than that spare tire is (assuming mounted).

As for the trucks in the picture... you're right, the first truck would be giving up a lot, since he's obviously got everything he needs right in the truck. But... there's only one person in that truck. If there were 2, or heaven forbid, 4 people in that truck... he's not going to have an empty roof anyway, now is he?

The second truck, it's hard to tell, but the back half of that rack looks empty. But let's assume it's full of Pelican cases. If he puts an RTT up top, that will remove his tent, pads, and sleeping bags from inside the truck. Now some of the displaced Pelican cases can go in the truck.

Then you go on to try and justify the fridge (or cooler!), and anybody who has done any non-vehicle-dependent travel is going to chime in and say that just for the 40lb weight of the fridge alone you could have 80 dried meals. There is no real justification carrying a fridge. It's absolutely a luxury, one which you have managed to justify for yourself.

People go canoeing or backpacking for a week at a time, easy, with only the stuff they can carry on their backs. Everything else is a luxury. Trying to say that one person's luxury is justifiable and another person's is not is pure hubris.

Edit: The only serious drawback to the RTT I can see is that if you have to bail on the truck, you can't take your tent and bags with you. But then, when I see neatly stacked Pelican cases with gear in it, and a fridge... Well, you only have 2 hands. Let me know how it works out for you.

 

[Brian...]

It really seems to come down to what you want to spend your money on and what you are willing to sacrifice to do so.

If you want the luxury of a RTT, then you will compromise the ability to store more goods on your roof rack.

If you want to have a 12V fridge that compromises the interior space of your vehicle.

In both scenarios you are compromising usable space with an item you deem worthy of inclusion in your expedition vehicle.

In the comparison of footprints, a RTT has a rather large footprint that in no way compares to a traditional tent/sleeping bag/pads etc unless you are going all colonial canvas tent with cots, etc. Even a 15 person expedition tent has roughly a 2' x 3.5' packed footprint. That leaves a lot of room for additional gear whether on the roof or inside and most people don't even carry a tent that large (although it is quite a bit more expensive than a RTT.)

The 12V fridge has a similar or slightly larger footprint than a regular ice chest/cooler which most everyone has when they are on multi-day expeditions.

I'm not including backpackers/backpacking equipment into this comparison because if that's how you are packing for a vehicle expedition then all you need is a Geo Tracker to go exploring in.

Cheers,
Brian...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Even a 15 person expedition tent has roughly a 2' x 3.5' packed footprint.

You have to account for the sleeping bags and mattresses, because the folded RTT encompasses those things.

 

[timmy!!!!!!!]

You know I don't think anyone has thought about middle of the night bathroom
breaks. I sure don't want to be dealling with climbing down a rtt to take a piss. And I know you could kinda just piss off the side of the rtt
but why risk falling.