Commerical overland camper situation in USA/Canada

[simon.winchester56]

Hi,
I was just wondering what people here make of the market in the USA/Canada for commerical overland vehicles compared to Europe? What do you think it lacks and has that Europe lacks?

What do we all think?

 

[aires35]

It's all about time

Not saying right or wrong just a fact: Europeans by and large get a vastly larger amount of time for vacation than the typical American. Also, you can get the same fuel between all the European countries, unlike how our "farsighted" American government has made possible.
These two things make the market in Europe much better for expedition vehicles. Some people would say geographical sites come into play, and yes they have Africa close by, but we got BC, Alaska, Mexico, most of Central America, and if you can bypass the Darien, all of South America.

 

[Victorian]

Good point about the vacation time europeans get! While living in Germany, I usually had two vacations a year. Each at least 3 weeks at a time! Went to Africa many time. Took only two days to get to Tunisia and about 3 to Marrokko.

As for vehicles. MAN's and Unimogs are sure cool and great. But in practical terms, like finding parking and maybe even using it as a daily driver, they are just not suitable....

How about something along this line:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/J_Y5RW-_JcVj55rM8cEknA

 

[Ford Prefect]

Not saying right or wrong just a fact: Europeans by and large get a vastly larger amount of time for vacation than the typical American. Also, you can get the same fuel between all the European countries, unlike how our "farsighted" American government has made possible.
These two things make the market in Europe much better for expedition vehicles. Some people would say geographical sites come into play, and yes they have Africa close by, but we got BC, Alaska, Mexico, most of Central America, and if you can bypass the Darien, all of South America.

Don't forget, our country is larger than most of Europe. Plus there is really no place to take an overland vehicle in this country. The reason we have no commercial overlanders here, in my humble opinion, is because you can get SUCH a nicer motorhome for the same price, with slide outs, and leather seats, and everything you could ever dream of, freaking walk in closets for crying out loud! Why would anyone ever buy an overlander in this country? You can even get to most of Canada in one of our motorhomes.

It is just not the same, I think that Americans would never spring for one in this market. Keep this mindset and go back fifteen years when money seemed to be falling off of trees, then you could have sold some. Maybe in time, but there is so much in the USA and Canada, people do not see the need to go beyond that (in a vehicle.) Those who do travel outside the USA (like my family) will just tell you how many hotel rooms, room service orders, and rental cars one can get for the purchase price, let alone fuel price, of an overlander.

No, sorry, I think it is going to stay with the select few who enjoy it not only because it gets us out, but because it has a unique pull for us. Most of our country will likely never get behind overlanding in any form or shape like the EU.

Well, My two bits.

Cheers

 

[dzzz]

I'm not sure what you mean by "no place to take an overland vehicle in this country"?
Vacation time: Not a problem. People who can spend $500K to $1.5K on a fancy RV aren't "working for the man" on the "man's" schedule. There are probably a million people in North America who can right that check without a problem. And I do mean literally write a check.
There is a pure commercial overland vehicle company in the U.S. in every sense of the meaning: Global Expedition Vehicles.
The number of expedition vehicles made each year in western Europe is a tiny, tiny number. It just happens to be an even smaller number in the U.S. Custom buses were big in the U.S. until a couple years ago. The number of $500K+ boats in the U.S. seems considerably greater than western Europe. So it's not like North American's spend less on expensive vehicles.
Finding a parking spot for an expo camper is no more difficult than a small to mid size RV. The difference is the expo vehicle can simply push the RV out of the way if necessary
Is there anything else I can disagree with?

 

[haven]

I'm not clear what "a market for commercial overland vehicles" means. Are you referring to factory prepared camping vehicles with off-road capability for sale? for rent? Or companies that organize overland travel experiences? Please tell us more.

Certainly there is a market for the equipment to make a vehicle more suitable for adventure travel. Just look at the ads in the Overland Journal, or the list of site sponsors on ExPo. And there is a market here for specialty vehicles that have a high level of off-pavement capability, such as the Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, Dodge Power Wagon and Ford Raptor. No doubt these vehicles will be driven on the road for 95% of the miles they travel, but they are remarkably well-prepared right off the showroom floor for off-pavement travel.

A small number of custom adventure travel vehicle manufacturers exists in USA today. Unicat Americas, Global Expedition Vehicles, Sportsmobile and XP Camper come to mind, and Earthroamer is back from bankruptcy.

[Edit: At this writing, Earthroamer LLC is still involved in bankruptcy proceedings. A new company has been created by several principal members of the original Earthroamer. They are building new camping vehicles using the original Earthroamer molds.]

If/when the USA economy picks up again, I expect other companies to join the party.

There are several USA and Canadian companies who construct campers for the adventure travel market. Just attach to your truck and go. Four Wheel Camper, Alaskan Camper, Adventure Trailers, and Campa USA come easily to mind in this category. There are many more.

Suppliers of off-road components in USA are starting to advertise that they offer full preparation of adventure travel vehicles. For example, Adventure Trailers now offers truck conversion and preparation, in addition to sales of their trailers and Flip-Pac campers. Not all of us want to build an off-road vehicle, just use it.

Off-road racing teams are served by a community of fabricators, including some that build support vehicles. These can also be used for adventure travel. The work of Rob McElroy, who prepares F350 chase vehicles for the Dakar Rally, comes to mind. See http://www.rallypanam.com/trucks.html

I don't think that any USA rental company will allow you to take their vehicles to Mexico and points south. With some prior notification, I think it's possible to take vehicles rented in USA into Canada. So the possibilities of renting a Jeep and driving to Tierra del Fuego are limited today. Within USA, you can rent vehicles ready for off-pavement adventures from Farabee's in Death Valley, Moab, and some locations in Colorado.

None of this could exist if there was no "market for commercial overland vehicles" in USA.

 

[charlieaarons]

I agree completely with the last 2 posts.
Generalizations about vacation time extended to people making $15-20/hr are irrelevant with regard to people able to afford a vehicle >$250K. And I have absolutely no idea what aires35 was referring to regarding fuel. ULSD vs. Pemex diesel? the same situation applies in the EC vs. non-EC countries in Eurasia and Africa.
Look at the size of the AdBlue tank in
http://www.unicat.net/en/info/EX70HDM-MBActros6x6.html
39 gallons - enough for a range of 15000 miles!
No matter where one lives, expedition campers will always be rarely seen. Although I see more in Anchorage, Alaska, in the summer months, than one would see in say Iowa or Indiana or in a typical town in Europe.

Charlie

 

[dzzz]

Taking Chip's thoughts more broadly, the dollars spent on, lets call it "high end customized recreational vehicles" must be vastly larger in the U.S. than any other place in the world. Consider swamp buggies, desert racers, Harley's, rock climbers and hundreds of other categories that crazed americans poor large amounts of money into. The Aussies seem to have this spirit too, but with some silly requirements that vehicles actually be checked for safety holds them back a bit.

I was watching an old Top Gear where Clarkson drove a Range Rover up a "mountain" in Scotland. He was actually allowed to drive on wet grass, and be "the first vehicle to drive to the top". Besides the obvious knee jerk reaction of "what a <insert female anatomical part>", it's pretty clear that the English and most western Europeans have to go a long way to get dirty tires. It's a lot easier to "need" an expedition vehicle in North America than say Scotland or the Alps. Overlanding Africa or Asia might be easier from London than Boston, but it's still a major journey.

 

[Ford Prefect]

Pardon me, what I was thinking of was more along the lines of a Unicat size vehicle. Sure an SUV, lots of places to go, and I Have been to many of them.

However, In a vehicle the size of a greyhound bus, it would be very difficult to travel MOST of those roads. They are not wide enough, tall enough, and the switchbacks (which are very common) are not deep enough to put one of these trucks on. In the photos that I have seen overseas, the roads are much more conducive to an overland camper because they are the only roads there, ergo they have to be built to allow some form of heavy truck to travel through. In other words, IN MY OPINION, the dirt roads, and more importantly the roads that would use a 4x4/6x6/8x8 vehicle really do not allow for something that massive to go down them.

Now Charlie up there reminds me that there are a lot more places ellegable in Alaska, and tons of roads up in norther Canada.

Anyhow, my two bits.

 

[charlieaarons]

Actually, F.P., the dirt and gravel roads and highways of the North are fine for any sized Unicat. But in the wet soft terrain encountered when I start following ATV tracks, my 13 ton rig tends to sink - deep. It is more appropriate for dry country. For some reason, with the assistance of 395 tires and CTIS, it does much better on sand (as long as steep grades aren't assaulted on dunes) than bottomless wet muck.
But my Unicat with a 3900mm wheelbase and a tight turning circle is far from a 6X6 MAN with a total WB of 53-5900mm. I think mine would do way better on switchbacks with a 154" WB than Avi's Int'l with 213" or a 6X6 with similar WB. In fact I know so; when in Morocco we hit some fairly tight switchbacks. The U500 did fine but the Int'l and MAN had to 3-point, 5-point etc.
Camper design is a matter of tradeoffs like any other engineering endeavor. I imagine a U500 unicat would outshine an ER except for the ER on 335/80R20s. But that particular tire/wheel choice for the ER involves mechanical risk on the front axle, wheel bearings especially.
Only the superbig Unicats like the two (6X6 and 8X8) sold to Gulf customers recently ar "as big as Greyhound buses". The lack of a hood (bonnet) on MAN/Actros makes an enormous difference vs. Int'l, Freightliner etc chassis.
The person I'd like to meet is the owner of the Actros 6X6 sold to a Chinese customer.

Charlie

 

[simon.winchester56]

Thanks for all the replies everyone, it seems we all have different views on North America.

My thoughts:
1) Unicat, too big - ER, too small. A balance between these (maybe on Unimog) would be ideal (Small unimog camper).

2) Not too many places to take such a rig in N. America? I would disagree. The Canadian north seems to have a lot to explore, as does the US desert areas. Central America is on the doorstep (admitedly it takes a while to get to compared to North Africa from Europe). And if one has a bit more time, South America. I think to say there are few places to visit is a bit lame personally.

Charlie/ I would also love to meet the owner of the chinese Actros. I get the feeling it may be a chinese version of the maximog owner?

SW56

 

[charlieaarons]

Charlie/ I would also love to meet the owner of the chinese Actros. I get the feeling it may be a chinese version of the maximog owner?

SW56

I'm not sure about that. The Maximog is altered to the point of being a useless pile of gadgets with the Mercedes 6 cyl OM366LA/8spd/working gears being replaced by a petrol Chevy V8 and automatic transmission - and not a TwinDisc either.
Whereas the Actros is the normal Unicat build for a 6-7m lifting roof 6X6 model, with the wise choice (for China) of an (unmodified) Merc chassis instead of MAN.
Who knows if he'll use it for travel in the less populated parts?

Charlie

 

[simon.winchester56]

True true. The infrared camera in the hood looks rather interesting. I am not sure what the rules are for locals to travel between provinces in china, for a foreigner it is just hellish!

Still, it's a great(and expensive) rig. So much for chinese communism...

 

[Victorian]

I'm not sure about that. The Maximog is altered to the point of being a useless pile of gadgets with the Mercedes 6 cyl OM366LA/8spd/working gears being replaced by a petrol Chevy V8 and automatic transmission - and not a TwinDisc either.
Whereas the Actros is the normal Unicat build for a 6-7m lifting roof 6X6 model, with the wise choice (for China) of an (unmodified) Merc chassis instead of MAN.
Who knows if he'll use it for travel in the less populated parts?

Charlie

he he he well said :coffeedrink: Did you know that it's still not running proper?

 

[charlieaarons]

Did you know that it's still not running proper?

Which one?

Charlie