ANOTHER Van Build Thread

[Salmon]

WARNING: Ridiculously long post!

Hi all, I'm planning to start a Ford camper van build as soon as I find my base vehicle. I have been a lurker on here and other sites for a while, and for the last week or so I've been reading through every van build thread I could find (which is a lot). I'm not saying my questions have never been answered before, but if they were I have not found them. So I'd like to ask some questions and hopefully you guys will be able to help me refine my plans, then if things go as well as I hope they will, I'll share my progress in the near future.

Here's a quick idea of what I have in mind: Ford E350 EB with 7.3L and low-top. I want to use it as a camper van of course, but I also want to retain some of the cargo functionality too. I have a 20' cargo trailer that I'd like to be able to pull with it occasionally. I'm thinking that I'd like to take out all but the first row bench seat. In the back of the van, I'll set up two bunks on the left side, and two shelves on the right side. The bunks and shelves will need to be able to fold flat against the walls and out of the way. Basically I'm thinking I'll make the interior a well thought-out but minimally furnished setup so that it can quickly convert from cargo mode to camper mode, or even do both interchangeably. For instance, going cargo mode with sand toys out to somewhere to play, then removing the toys and switching to camper mode until it's time for the trip home.

Drivetrain-wise, I'd like to have something like Vanaconda or some of the other amazing rigs on here but honestly I can't see myself justifying the cost, time, reduction in fuel economy, reduction in towing capacity, raising of CG, etc. for the places I'd like to get to and the things I'd like my van to do. Besides, those are just too eye-catching for me (don't get me wrong - I've been drooling over some of these threads for weeks, but in some places it's just better to look like a painter's van with a little lift than a show truck - and I go to some of those places. Certainly no slight intended to anybody.) I'm thinking a moderate lift (~3"-4"), going up to ~33" tires, and locking rear diff, and see where that gets me.

As far as systems, I think I'll set up a house 110/12V electrical system run off the alternator, as well as a basic fresh/gray water system. For cooking I will just use a camping stove, and for refrigeration I'll stick with a cooler at first. I'll put in an air compressor and reservoir too because, well, they're just darn useful.

Cost is a factor for me, but I've got plenty of time so I plan on starting small and taking it step by step. I've got an '04 Tacoma extracab (seems like a trend around here) that I have set up as an expedition rig already, so I'm in no hurry. I'd also like to learn a little along the way so I plan on doing as much as I can myself. I'm hoping I can find a decent base van in the $4000-$6000 range. I suspect that's a bit ambitious but I have time to look around. I'm in SoCal BTW, in case anyone wants to throw me any leads...

So there's the plan, at least the basics. Now here are my questions:

1) I saw on a recent thread that someone mentioned using a low gear ratio with an overdrive to retain highway drivability. It seems like that's the best of both worlds and everybody should be doing it - but I can't find any other reference to that setup. Any ideas??

2) Is there any sense doing a lift without doing a 4WD conversion? Can I do one then the other later if I decide to?

3) How strong are the walls/wall supports in these vans? I assume I shouldn't try cantilevering a bed out from the wall without supporting the inboard edge...but can I? What about suspending the edge of the bed from the roof? Is there enough strength up there somewhere?

4) Are there any major advantages/disadvantages to any of the 7.3L model years? (I have read all the stuff about the 6.0 saga and and I just don't think I want to go down that road, but I don't see much feedback on one 7.3L over another) It seems like there are so many different combinations out there but everything is pretty easily interchangeable as long as it's a 7.3L. I'm sort of shooting for around the 2000 model year.

5) What about transmissions? I really haven't seen much at all about the stock transmissions. Anything I should look for?

6) Any suggestions on options that I should look for or avoid? I'm thinking that the more stripped-out the better in my case, although AC and cruise control would be nice. I'd prefer to start with a mostly blank slate and add in only what I think is important.

7) What do you think about a 2WD van, aired down a little, with a locker offroad? I think the build style I have in mind will keep the van (relatively) light, and I have no illusions that I'm going to have a rockcrawer or a sandrail. But with the cost of a 4x4 conversion (in capital, fuel economy, complexity/reliability, and did I mention capital), I want to avoid it. Worst case, if 2WD is just not enough for me, I can always just upgrade the trans and front axle later...right? (assuming I've already done a lift)

8) I've mostly just seen ARB lockers on these. Is anybody running something else, and are there any pros/cons to one vs another solution, that are particular to this application? I've already got the compressed air source planned, for what that's worth.

Ok, there it is. What do you think? Any feedback is welcome - I'd rather you poke holes in my plan now rather than after I've already gone down the wrong road.

 

[dwh]

1) Gear Vendors.

2) Sure. Lots of 2WD vehicles go lots of places. Your stock front suspension will only go so high though.

3) Not that strong. Hinged bunks with cantilevered straps to the wall it probably better than hanging from the roof. Especially if you reinforce the wall some with plywood.

The rest I leave to someone with more knowledge of newer vans. (I've had a bunch of vans, but all older.)

 

[dsw4x4]

1)Gearvendors is nice but expensive that is why you do not see it that often.
A 7.3 will already have od so cost versus benefit is not that high to add a od unit.

2) Yes it makes sense to lift a two wheel drive however all of the components you purchase to lift a 2wd will become useless in a 4wd conversion.

3) If you support a bed using cables you can go off of the structure that the shoulder belts are bolted to and it should be plenty strong enough. As for where the hinge attaches I would go with what dwh said and reinforce the wall with plywood first.

4) 7.3s are all created equal as far as I know there were no real big changes in the vans once they went turbo around 94 (I think) not much else changed.

5)As for trannys they recieved the usual updates through the years but nothing that could not be updated when you have an overhaul done.


6)Power locks windows rear heat and ac are really nice to have

7) 2wd drive can go a lot of places I had a lot of fun thrashing my first 2wd van.

8) Lockers are a whole different debate my opinion go with an arb i love mine and for any multi purpose vehicle I would not put anything but an arb in it.
Good luck with your build

 

[blupaddler]

To mirror a bit what dsw4x4 said...


1. Gear Vendors, or just generic overdrive unit. This won't be needed. Especially because the 7.3 came with the E40D (i believe), which already has a factory overdrive. Gear Vendors cost upwards of $3K, which would partly put you towards a U-Joint conversion.

2. Lift without 4wd? I see you live here in Sandy Eggo. What are your plans? Baja? Forest service roads? 2wd a lift and a locker will get you into many places. You just need to remember that vans are big and heavy. I came from an 80 series that could go anywhere. But now with my EB 4x4 van I have to plan things out a great deal more. I haven't taken it on anything rough yet. Also it would help to run some numbers. Figure out how much a 2wd lift is going to cost, and then run the same for the 4wd. See if the difference in cost is worth it for you. You may want to just put some a/t tires on the van for a while after you get it, drive it around and see how things go.

6. Be careful on find a stripped out model... Most of those have been used as delivery and have been hammered.






That's all I can really speak to.

Good luck with your search. Keep us posted.

 

[ujoint]

I agree, for the $$ you'll invest in a 2wd lift, you can do a partial 4x4 conversion. Just install the front axle & lift, and keep the van 2wd. If you find that you need 4wd in the future, you can just add the t-case & you have 4wd! (you WILL want 4wd eventually)

 

[Salmon]

Great feedback already, thanks guys.

Overdrive: I like the idea of a high final drive ratio because most of my use mileage-wise will probably be lightly loaded, highway-type travel. But I like the idea of a low range because I’d like to be able to tow some heavy stuff on occasion, and I have always thought that the slower you can drive in technical offroad conditions the better, unless you have a fat wallet or wizard-like field repair and fab skills. Looks like I need to either find a happy middle ground or win the lotto. If there was a cheap simple solution I guess they would probably all be modded already.

Lifting a 2WD: That idea seems to be getting some mixed reviews. DSW4x4, you make a good point. I was looking at UJOINT's lift page and it seemed like most of the front end parts would work with a new front axle (leaf spring conversion) so I guess I was thinking of going that route, and UJOINT, I'm glad to hear you think there's some credibility to the idea. That plan may need some additional research. And for the record, I do WANT 4WD now...but I'm not sure it's worth it for my purposes. When I need to pound a nail, and I start eyeing that Forty-Thousand-Newton-Mile-Hydraulic-Retro-Reticulating-Incendiary-Thermonuclear-Induction-Reciprocating-Sledge-Maul with the gel grip handle in Northern Tool, sometimes I need to remind myself that the $8 claw hammer I already own would do just fine.

Bed support/wall strength: DSW4x4, I did not think about the seatbelt attachment points. That would probably work. And DWH, I’ll definitely reinforce the wall – I want to insulate everything anyway so I plan on “finishing” the walls. I should probably just have the beds supported by the floor regardless – that would be simpler, and it would really suck to find out one day that my rear doors don’t close because I rhombus-ed the body from all that weight on one wall. The other thing I was thinking about but didn’t mention in the first post was some sort of roll cage-type setup to stiffen the body from inside. I’m surprised I have not seen that mentioned before, but have you guys ever heard of something like that? Before you call me crazy, let me explain: I have seen several posts asking about how much weight the van roof would support. Plus people hang all sorts of weight off the back of their bumpers – giant tires, various fuel containers, water, motorcycle hitch haulers, etc. The limiting factor for most of that stuff is that it’s attached to the frame, so there is a tremendous bending moment somewhere. We get around the problem by over-building things strong enough to withstand those forces, but the penalty is much heavier components. What about putting together something like a roll cage with angular stiffeners to support all that stuff by having more than one point of attachment and (as well as my cantilever bed)? Granted, it would probably not be of too much value in an actual rollover unless it too was way overbuilt, but for lack of a better term that’s what it would resemble. In other types of modified vehicles it’s a common enough feature. And I wouldn’t think it would be too difficult or expensive to do. …Ok, NOW you can call me crazy.

Buying a stripped out van: Blupaddler, again good point. The fact that they are abused probably lends to the low price as much as the lack of options does.

Options: DSW4x4, what do you mean by rear heat? Is that just the ducting from the economizer, or are you talking about a separate system? I saw on a vender site a “van rear heater” unit that looked like a little electric heating coil with a fan, but I assumed it was just some aftermarket thing, which I dismissed because I’m sure running an electric heater off a battery must put a substantial strain on any setup. Since most of the time I’m in temperate areas, and since I plan to insulate everything well, I didn’t plan on addressing the heating issue at all initially.

Lockers: My only other vehicle with lockable differentials was/is my 04 Tacoma with the TRD electric rear locker. People knock the durability of the electric lockers but I have never had a problem. But a Tacoma is a lot lighter and makes a lot less torque than an E350. The ARB name didn’t become so well-known for nothing. That said, I guess I need to take another look at what I want to do with the drivetrain and suspension. Blupaddler’s suggestion to put good A/Ts on and just go is some sound advice so maybe I'll just plan on that and work on the other stuff first. If I spend most of my time stuck then I'll know it's time for an upgrade!

Thanks again guys, I really appreciate the body of knowledge and experience that this forum brings together. I had a long and ultimately aborted relationship with an ’88 Samurai rebuild a few years back. I have also done a fair amount of tinkering on my Tacoma but nothing I would call a major project and definitely not anywhere close to what some of you are doing with your rigs. This time I’m determined to ask for advice BEFORE stepping off the deep end, and it’s awesome that you guys make the resource of your experience available to guys like me. No doubt I'll have more questions soon, and once this project becomes reality I'll have even more.

 

[1sweetvan]

Gearing:
A Gear Vendors unit will cost you more than you want to spend on your van and the return on investment will be a long ways off unless you plan on driving 100,000 miles a year for several years. Trying to save 10% on your fuel bill this way while at the same time adding high rolling resistance tires and a lift makes no sense. Better to gear for a reasonable cruising speed and drive it there. Unless you drastically change your tire size, stock gearing will probably work. The Torque Converter does the job of providing a lower gear when needed by slipping to get a big load going. Having lots of gears is great but you aren't going trucking, moving 80,000# with 400 H.P., your power to weight ratio is way better. (Unless you buy a Westy )


Lifting:
For a couple of hundred, you can lift the front about 2" before you run into alignment issues. Either with taller/stiffer springs or spacers for an F350. This will let you run a 31.5" tire. Giving you almost 3" overall lift over stock. If you want more lift you will spend at least 2-3K at which point a partial 4x4 conversion might look reasonable if you don't have RSC, at which point the 6k axle might become cost prohibitive.

Bed:

There is a guy on the sportsmobile forum that hinged his beds from opposite walls, brilliant job really. This is the nicest multipurpose interior I've seen yet. Check this out!

http://www.sportsmobileforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=6098


My $0.02

 

[TroySmith80]

Pictures are small, but this is from a CL ad. This guy had internal roll cage in an '89 Ford van. The pictures are still hosted on CL but the ad is gone, so the pictures will be gone before long too, save em if you want em.

 

[Salmon]

Ok ok, you guys have convinced me not to do the Gear Vendors route! I just wanted to raise the question to see what the collective thought, but with such strong recommendations against the idea for my application, I’ll conclude that it’s probably wise to give up on that unless I someday have a NEED for it (unlikely).

If you want more lift you will spend at least 2-3K at which point a partial 4x4 conversion might look reasonable if you don't have RSC, at which point the 6k axle might become cost prohibitive.

What do you mean? What is RSC? and how does the 6K axle have to do with it? I'm lost.

But 1SweetVan, that van you linked to is awesome! I think it's almost my ideal setup, at least as far as the basic layour goes. It helps visualize just how much space things will take up, too.

TroySmith80, that is exactly what I was envisioning with the roll cage thing. Thanks for illustrating my point. What do you guys think about using something like that for attaching removable (or non-removable) things? You could even use it to hang a sleeping hammock if you’re into that sort of thing. Is that a feasible idea, or more effort than it’s worth? I wonder if those bars are tied into the frame. My old Samurai had a roll cage that was just mounted in the tub, and I always wondered if I had a rollover if the feet would just punch through the sheet metal and smoosh me anyways.
By the way, I saw a post from you in a different thread and copied the idea of putting what you’re looking for into your signature. Might as well advertise!

 

[dsw4x4]

Passenger vans and very few cargo vans have rear heat and ac they work the same way the front heat and ac work (engine coolant and freon) but it is a stand alone unit in the rear of the van. If you use your van in extreme temps hot or cold these are nice because it cools and heats that large space fast as apposed to trying to heat or cool that space with just the front heat and ac.

 

[Salmon]

Rsc

Guess I spoke too soon - I got on the Google machine and found out that RSC is Roll Stability Control, and based on reading some of the posts, apparently if you have it then you can never lift your van, loosen a screw, drive on bumpy roads, or adjust a mirror without the RSC getting angry and applying the ABS. 2006 is the first model year that I saw it referred to - is RSC on any earlier model year E350s?

 

[dwh]

Roll cage...

It can be done, but you'll probably get all the strength you need from plywood on the walls. There is also a weight issue. Plywood isn't light. I would say do one or the other but not both unless you need rollover protection.


Rear heat...

I had an 84 E350 that had rear heat/air. It had a heater core, a/c evaporator and 3 speed fan in a metal box. It was tapped off the heater/ac lines under the hood, and the hoses and wiring ran to the rear along the frame. I'm pretty sure it was either a factory install or a dealer install, since the controls for it were part of the factory dash.

I took one look at that setup and ripped it out. I could see it for a people hauler/bus setup, but it's wasn't useful for a toyhauler/camper...mainly because it only worked when the engine was running. It also looked to me like a whole lot of potential leaks.

A self-contained unit could work, but would need power, and that could only realistically come from the engine or a generator. Batteries won't run either heat or a/c for very long at all.

 

[Salmon]

Roll cage...
I could see it for a people hauler/bus setup, but it's wasn't useful for a toyhauler/camper...mainly because it only worked when the engine was running.

I agree with you there DWH, I can't think of many situations where I'd be sitting around for long enough to need heating or cooling in the back, and want to let the rig idle just for that. For driving, the curtain in the pics that TroySmith80 posted might be enough to keep some of the heat or cold up front (at least for the driver and first passenger). I bet it would also help regulate temps in the back while parked, too, by separating that big greenhouse from the back during the summer, and adding a layer of insulation from all those windows in the winter, provided there was some other sort of heat source in the back.

This guy put together an impressive website documenting all his efforts insulating/heating his SMB, among many other things: http://www.badgertrek.com/sportsmobile/interior.shtml
From his blog is sounds like his rig handles some pretty cold temps fairly well with minimal heating, (although a diesel furnace probably puts out as much heat as anything else in a space the size of a van). I doubt I will have those types of temperature challenges with my van very often, if at all.

 

[1sweetvan]

What do you mean? What is RSC? and how does the 6K axle have to do with it? I'm lost.

But 1SweetVan, that van you linked to is awesome! I think it's almost my ideal setup, at least as far as the basic layout goes. It helps visualize just how much space things will take up, too.

"RSC" is Ford speak for "Rollover Stability Control". It came on 2006 (?) passenger vans and in 2009 (?) on all Ford vans. If you are looking at $4-6K for a van, those model years won't be an issue. You can lift the RSC van, you just can't do it the way earlier versions were done. The Camburg Bent Beam, 2WD lift works just fine because it does not use a drop pitman arm which changes the Steering wheel to wheel movement ratio. The drop bracket 2WD lifts on the other hand use the drop pitman arm which causes the RSC to activate in certain (not all ) situations. As far as RSC and 4WD goes, it can be done but at a greater cost. About $6K for the front axle alone.

That van is awesome isn't it?! Twin or Queen size bed. Camper van, Toy hauler, Cargo van. Brilliant.

 

[Salmon]

Ohhh....ok. Thanks for breaking it down for me. I'm really set on a 7.3 and with my price target I don't think I was ever in any real danger of ending up with a late model anyway. But that's good to be aware of, for sure.

Here's another question: what are some good options for soft tops? I really like the looks of the SMB Penthouse, because it seems pretty unobtrusive when it's down. I like the idea of being able to stay low-profile for overhead clearance and maintaining the stealth camping option. But from what I've seen, you have to either pay an awful lot for a new one, or hack something together from a junkyard or off a wrecked SMB or something. What other options are out there for a soft/retractable top that doesn't look like much when it's down?