Camper questions

[mmatheson]

I am planning to replace my Propane furnace and waterheater with a deasel fired system. I have read of problems in cold and high altitude situations ? Can someone provide me the manufacturers they had problems with ? How cold of temperatures, and how high of altitudes has anyone had successfull or unsuccessful operation. My interest in Deasel, is my camper has a deasel engine and refilling the deasel tank is uch easier than the propane tank, plus I want to have more temperature zone control. I do not plan to chage the cooking over to Deael, just the water and temperature.

My rig has 26 feet of living space, plus a large storage compartment and lower storage compartments, plus water and holding tanks, all that need to be kept warm.

I would appreciate ideas and facts

Curious

 

[4x4 explorer]

I'm in the process of building a system similiar to what you describe. Diesel hydronic furnace to heat water that will circulate through water to air heat exchangers for general heating. With additional routing through a hot water heater/heat exchanger for domestic hot water. That unit can heat water with (1) engine coolant (2) an electric element (3) the diesel furnace. This type of arrangement also allows you to pre-heat the engine if desired.
Espar and Webasto are diesel furnaces that seem to be the most popular for water to air (hydronic) systems. I've heard good and bad about both of them, so I'm not sure which one is best. Anyone out there that cares to share they're experience with either or both furnaces could maybe put this to rest as to which one is best.

 

[FusoFG]

We have an Espar 5 diesel hydronic heater, a 6 gallon Indel marine hot water heater and 2 heat exchangers with 2 speed fans.

The Espar can heat the hot water tank, heat the camper with the heat exchangers and / or pre heat the engine if necessary.

The engine can heat the camper and / or heat the hot water tank.

We have both the Espar timer control and a programmable thermostat to maintain a set temperature.

If we haven't been driving or using the furnace, we set the timer for 10 minutes and have plenty of hot water for 2 showers and dishes.

We used it for 3 years and have used it over 10,000 feet and have never had a problem.

As far as I know there isn't a limit to how cold the unit will operate. I've never used it below 5F.

How low an outside temperature and still be comfortable inside is a function of insulation, surface area of the floor, walls and roof, furnace size and how warm or cool you like it. At 10F outside and 68F inside our heater will run a little less than half the time, so I think we could still be comfortable at a considerable lower outside temperature.

The Espar 4 is about 14,000 btu and the Espar 5 is about 18000 btu. Get the muffler, it really helps.

I think the formula for calculating the btu required to maintain inside temperature of the camper (not raise it from cold) is:

(surface area in sq ft * (outside temp - inside temp)) / R factor of the insulation.

We have a heater with twice the calculated btu so I have extra capacity to raise the temperature of the camper from cold.

Allowing the engine to heat the camper and hot water while you drive makes it nice when you stop for lunch or the night.

At one time I believe you could purchase 2 different fuel pumps for the Espar 4 so you could adjust one for high altitude, but I don't believe that is possible anymore.

And we have never needed any help to work at high altitude.

The other stories about altitude problems have been associated with a diesel cooktop.

We've never had any trouble with our Wallas diesel cooktop because of altitude, but we've had starting problems that turned out to be low voltage, a bad electrical ground and wind blowing directly into the exhaust pipe.

Wallas now makes a version of the cooktop with a high altitude compensation button.

 

[milo12]

FusoFG - Thanks for the information. Do you have a diagram of how your system is setup? I am interested in doing a similar setup in a camper.

 

[FusoFG]

Here's a rough drawing:

 

[Martyn]

I am planning to replace my Propane furnace and waterheater with a deasel fired system. I have read of problems in cold and high altitude situations ? Can someone provide me the manufacturers they had problems with ? How cold of temperatures, and how high of altitudes has anyone had successfull or unsuccessful operation. My interest in Deasel, is my camper has a deasel engine and refilling the deasel tank is uch easier than the propane tank, plus I want to have more temperature zone control. I do not plan to chage the cooking over to Deael, just the water and temperature.

My rig has 26 feet of living space, plus a large storage compartment and lower storage compartments, plus water and holding tanks, all that need to be kept warm.

I would appreciate ideas and facts

Curious

Welcome, and good to see you on the Portal.

The diesel heaters will work in extreme cold conditions. We fitted hydronic heating to the fuel cells on our arctic trailer. They will be using diesel heaters for their equipment at -53'F. The only problem is keeping the diesel from gelling, and that is achieved by running the diesel heater to heat the diesel.

I've never heard of a problem running diesel at elevation.

 

[Joe]

Hi,

have a similar system to FusoFG but with Eberspächer heaters. As long as you have the right diesel (no summer diesel in Winter) you shouldn't have probs.
The issue with the different pumps for high altitudes is related to the air that is getting thinner the higher you get - but the injection volume remains the same. So sooner or later your heater will get soot. To prevent this the manufactures had and hopefully have injection pumps for lower volumes to solve the prob. In metric (sorry, I am from Germany :Wow1: Up to 1800 meter it will work, if you are higher and stay there longer it CAN cause probs. So the "smaller" pumps work up to 3600 meter and then the issue with the probs can start again. Note: A smaller volume causes a smaller effeciency!

Some details for how I did it you can find here on my HP.

 

[haven]

There are two factors to be aware of. First is the cloud point of diesel, the temperature where parafin wax starts to precipitate out of the diesel. These solid wax particles can clog fuel filters, jets in stoves and the like. Second is the gel point, the temp where the liquid diesel starts to turn to a gelatin-like state.

The exact temperature for these two points depends on the blend of diesel. As the temperature goes down, fuel distributors blend kerosene into the #2 diesel to lower the gel point.

The problems start when you purchase fuel at a low elevation, say Los Angeles, and then drive up into the mountains, say Mammoth Mountain. If you are concerned that the fuel you're buying doesn't have the right protection, you can purchase fuel additives that will extend the gel point lower.

My experience is limited, but I drove a diesel without problems in the mountains when overnight temps reached about 25F / -5C.

Chip Haven

 

[Joe]

Hi,

re. Clip Haven's answer: I hate additives. OK, the one to allow lower temperatures will work but most of them are just to pull you the money out of the pocket without being really efffective.
I prefer to do it the traditional way: Simply add fuel. You can add up to 20-25% fuel to diesel without probs.
What I don't know how sensitive modern engines are, for old engines NO probs. But mormally the engine is not the problem but the greasing of the injection pump!
So as posted in another thread I am happily using the mixture of guys who filled up their tanks with the wrong kind - either diesel or fuel and then ask in garages to pump it out. Although old engines don't care as long as you don't exceed the above mentioned percentage I add oil for 2-stroke engines in a ratio 1:50 to the fuel (not diesel) to protect the injection pump and to be 100% safe.

 

[charlieaarons]

In Alaska you don't need to add anything. In the winter the refineries supply straight Jet A-50, which has a cloud point of -58 F. In 30 years of diesel driving I have had exactly one gel-up, when I purchased fuel from a station that had a very low volume, in November, then it got below 0 F. Their fuel must have been some or all summer fuel. I have driven in temps down to -30 F. without problems otherwise.
Also, all modern (in the last 10 years) diesels have an integral fuel filter/water separator/fuel heater. So if it's liquid enough to get to the filter, it will run.
Just in case, for places like Tibet (I plan to be there in their summer - May & June) or the lower 48, I have a 500W 110V heater on my fuel tank, which I can run off my inverter with an outside plug under the camper.

Charlie