Chains?
- Thread starter erod
- Start date
paulj
Expedition Leader
Elsewhere it seems to be the eastern snow-belt drivers who are amazed when westerners talk about chains. "I've driven in snow all my life and never had to use chains" 
The idea that chains might be required on certain roads or times seems foreign to them.
Requirements, though, vary significantly by state. California and Oregon seem to have the strictest chain rules. Washington has more gradations (chains over 10,000 lbs, traction tires advised, chains on all but 4wd, chains on all). In the recent snow, only Mt Baker highway went as far a requiring chains on all. They said on the news that Idaho doesn't have any chain rules, which caused some problems recently.
In British Columbia they sometimes recommend chains for slippery mud conditions.
paulj
The idea that chains might be required on certain roads or times seems foreign to them. Requirements, though, vary significantly by state. California and Oregon seem to have the strictest chain rules. Washington has more gradations (chains over 10,000 lbs, traction tires advised, chains on all but 4wd, chains on all). In the recent snow, only Mt Baker highway went as far a requiring chains on all. They said on the news that Idaho doesn't have any chain rules, which caused some problems recently.
In British Columbia they sometimes recommend chains for slippery mud conditions.
paulj
bigreen505
Expedition Leader
In Colorado chains are really only useful off road. Highways usually get closed before chains on cars and passenger trucks are needed. Chains are required on single axel combos when there is snow in the forecast and on all semis when the road is snow packed.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I carry 4 chains with me pretty much year 'round. Like Bill says, not used all that much on the highways anymore, although technically a passenger car with chains would rate the same as 4WD with M+S tires under snow restrictions. CDOT very rarely institutes anything other than commercial truck restrictions, but state law has a level where they could close a road to everyone except 'suitable' vehicles. That said, I've used mine often on the road up Jones Pass, Rollin's Pass and other not quite off highway, not quite pavement roads that are not well maintained. This is mostly in the pursuit of skiing, so it's not really 4x4 snow bashing just for that sake so much.
BTW, a good place to find chains:
http://www.tirechains.com
BTW, a good place to find chains:
http://www.tirechains.com
paulj
Expedition Leader
Now you can earn money installing tire chains in Washington:
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/winter/chain_install.htm
In the far western states, many drivers live in the low lands close to the ocean, where it may snow only once or twice a season. Few switch to specialized winter tires. Chains are a temporary measure that helps when they cross mountain passes during a snow storm.
Question: if you run an MT category tire for summer expedition use (mud and rocky trails), do you leave them on in the winter, or do you switch to a snow tire? I suspect many MT tires do ok in deep snow, but do poorly on compact snow and ice.
paulj
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/winter/chain_install.htm
In the far western states, many drivers live in the low lands close to the ocean, where it may snow only once or twice a season. Few switch to specialized winter tires. Chains are a temporary measure that helps when they cross mountain passes during a snow storm.
Question: if you run an MT category tire for summer expedition use (mud and rocky trails), do you leave them on in the winter, or do you switch to a snow tire? I suspect many MT tires do ok in deep snow, but do poorly on compact snow and ice.
paulj
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bigreen505
Expedition Leader
In Colorado, CDOT is exceptionally skilled at removing all the snow on the road and leaving the ice perfectly intact, so that is really more of an issue. I have only encountered deep snow on the highway (where a MT's would be best) a handfull of times.
toyrunner95
Explorer
i used my chains here in pullman wa. we got a foot of snow over night and my little suby needed some help. i never use them on my truck. but it likes holes and ditches anyway.
Pskhaat
2005 Expedition Trophy Champion
paulj said:
Paul, I have a possibly contentious view on MT tires in snow...the view is that MT is the perfect snow tire really IMHO. Many reasons, but primarily it is the MT tires that are studdable vs others, they also can clear snow from the tread which most AT/M+S snow tires can not, and allow better snow buildup during locked wheel stops. Additionally, the side lugs help keep possibly loose chains in place on the tire during rotation.
Yes, we have come a long way in tire compounds and studs are not nearly as important as they at one time were, but I still feel studded MT (possibly with siping) are very tough to beat (add in some ``green diamond'' compound and you're set).
Conversely, I have never been a fan of the BFG AT in snow (quite the opposite, having placed myself in many a ditch with them in the winter) but am looking forward to seeing how his special compound BFG AT performs for Scott Brady.
paulj
Expedition Leader
I've been puzzled as to why the BFG KOs have a 'severe snow' (snow flake on mountain) rating, where as most other AT (and coarser styles) don't - or at least didn't a few years ago. The rating is supposed to be more meaningful than the M+S one. Even more curious, some sizes of the KOs don't have that rating.
On the subject of tread clearing snow, Cooper makes a point, when writting about their Discoverer M+S tires, about 'snow on snow' traction.
It almost sounds as though snow packed in the grooves can improve traction. That may be true for some snow conditions, but not others. Maybe I'll look up their patent application.
paulj
On the subject of tread clearing snow, Cooper makes a point, when writting about their Discoverer M+S tires, about 'snow on snow' traction.
http://www.coopertire.com/html/products/tires_lighttruck.aspx?page=discoverer_ms
It almost sounds as though snow packed in the grooves can improve traction. That may be true for some snow conditions, but not others. Maybe I'll look up their patent application.
paulj
bigreen505
Expedition Leader
paulj said:
As it was explained to me (which may or may not be true) it has to do with the number of tread blocks and sipes or total biting edges. It has nothing to do with material, the tire could be made from stainless steel and get the severe snow rating providing it had at least the minimum number of blocks and edges.
This is true with new snow with about a 10% or less moisture content. Snow is a sharp crystalline structure, so naturally it is a very cohesive on a mechanical level. Make a snowball and try to shear it in half. When you get very dry hoar snow or very wet snow that theory goes out the window and a tread that clears the snow works better. Luckily, most of the snow that people drive in is pretty grippy stuff or it is ice.
Designing a snow tire that works in all common winter road conditions is just about impossible and Scott's ideal of a sipped and studded soft rubber, hydrophilic (not hydrophobic) MT with green diamonds is about as close as you get. I have run several sets of car snow tires from Michelin, Gislaved, Vredestein and Nokian and they all had strengths and weaknesses -- i.e. they worked really well in some conditions and in others you might as well get out and walk. For what is is worth, the Gislaved Nord Frost II and Michelin Alpin 100 (both long since discontinued) were the most well rounded and I think it is because they had a blocky MT like tread pattern (but much tighter) with a bizzilion sipes. The Nokians and new Michelins use a tread pattern that is too tight for optimum snow grip, but handle water and slush vastly better.
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DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
So funny how ExPo is such a diverse place. I hated MTs as a year 'round tire, literally white knuckles for me. I even tried having them siped and that barely made a difference. I find fresh BFG ATs the best performer for me all around for road use on my truck. Yup, they are a distant second to a MT tread in deep snow and are horrible compared to real snow tires (but until the Hakkapeliitta comes in 33x9.50, you do what ya gotta), but chain 'em up and they work just fine. On the packed snow that CDOT leaves I just have decent luck with ATs. But keep in mind that my truck is much lighter on the rear wheels, is S-L-O-W going uphill and is traditional part time 2WD, so I lock my hubs and play the 2WD-4WD shuffle as conditions change and so I spend a lot of time with rear wheels only driven at 45MPH. In an 80 series with full time 4WD and a significantly different weight balance, the ideal tire will certainly be different.pskhaat said:
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paulj
Expedition Leader
Here's material on chains by Bill Burke
http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/Chains.htm
A common brand of chains is SCC. Depending on your tire size, and clearance (particularly with respect to suspension components), you can choose from up to 9 different models. Differences include cost, installation ease, durability, and traction.
Here's a thread on chains (and cables) on a British Columbia hiking forum
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19442
paulj
http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/Chains.htm
A common brand of chains is SCC. Depending on your tire size, and clearance (particularly with respect to suspension components), you can choose from up to 9 different models. Differences include cost, installation ease, durability, and traction.
Here's a thread on chains (and cables) on a British Columbia hiking forum
http://www.clubtread.com/sforum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19442
paulj
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