Cold Starting Diesels...

[Zimnij Volk]

Hey guys,

Once again I've come to poke at your brains. Recently I found a nice Suburban for sale up here, replacement for my other one I suppose. It's only a half ton, but it seems to have a bit of a lift and axles look a bit beefier. Also, scored a 6.2 in it! (Which when I called they were replacing the glow plugs) I'm going to go check it out today. But I just recently though about this, I've never had to deal with sub-zero weather before, and I've heard of the need for block heaters in the cold. Where I'm located doesn't always allow me to plug in either.

Is there such thing as a portable block heater?

How long would a block heater need to warm up the engine sufficiently in -20 degree weather? (Or in the teens as it is now)

Any other ways to warm it up that anyone can think of?

My shift at work will end around 9:30pm, giving the engine plenty of time to cool down as well while I'm there, without a block heater, could that be a foreseeable issue?

Thanks for the help, guys!

~Micheal

 

[brussum]

Hey there, I see you've got Corvallis as your location. I grew up in Corvallis and eventually moved to Albany during high school. It's a great town, although it's been a few years since I've lived there.

Diesels are fairly common up here in the Arctic region. They handle the extreme cold fairly well, but it does take some preparation to help them cope with the cold. If you're going to be in the -20F temps, you definitely want to plug it in with a block heater. I'd recommend keeping it plugged in full-time if it's going to be sitting for a prolonged period. You can probably get away with plugging it in a few hours before you start it, but the heating is not instantaneous. I usually plug my diesel in when the temps hit the teens. I think it just keeps the block a little warmer so that it's not such a shock when it starts. Also, it keeps the coolant warmer, which means I'm not freezing while I drive it the first 20 miles.

There are likely some effective engine "preheaters" out there. Try googling Zerostart...they sell all kinds of heaters and cold weather equipment. FYI, in addition to the block heater, most folks up here run oil pan, trans pan, and battery heaters. Of course, it does get extremely cold here (we spent a few weeks of November between -20F and -40F). A few of the diesel mechanics I've talked to also recommend adding cetane booster and anti-gel at each fill up. I've also heard of adding Heet or a similar product every other fuel up. I also attach my grill cover to keep the warm air in and the cold air out. Lastly, check your belts and make sure your batteries are good and strong.

 

[charlieaarons]

Whatever you do DON'T use ether!!! With you glow plugs that will cause a catastrophic explosion.
But do make sure that all 8 glow plugs work correctly; they should all have a resistance of <1 ohm. If "open" (infinite resistance) they need replacement. Some V8s are hard to replace the glowplugs at the rear. Be sure to use antiseize on the threads.
Also sometimes the glowplug controller (basically a big relay) goes bad.
Living in Alaska we almost always are provided with non-gelling fuel but where you live a cold snap could call for something like Power Service in the white bottle - antigel - mixed into the fuel BEFORE it gets cold:
http://www.powerservice.com/dfs/
Oil choice makes a big difference. Most people down there use 15W40 which is good to about 0F., roughly. 5W40 like Delvac 1 ESP or Rotella T6 is more expensive but if you are really going to be starting in minus zero temps you need it.
The thing should start easily in the plus teens with good glow plugs, proper fuel and 15W40. Let it idle for 2 minutes if possible before taking off to get the oil fully circulating. And a pair of good batteries is a necessity of course.
John - do any people in Fairbanks use Webasto diesel fired preheaters to warm up the engine and cab? My Unimog came with a 9kw Webasto (option of course) with a timer and it is fantastic - 45 minutes and snow/ice is off windshield, cab hot, engine warm. Oil is still cool so you do still need to let it circulate a bit thru the warm motor.
There is a Webasto distributor in Fairbanks, probably does a lot of Slope work.

Charlie

 

[Buliwyf]

With Ford I just turn on the key, but don't crank, until the glow plugs shutoff, then I do that again. Sometimes using the glow plugs 2-3 times adds some extra heat.

I've heard of people using intake heaters. A screen in the air intake that glows red hot like a regular heater to heat the intake air charge. That would run off the battery and you could hook it's relay to your glow plug circuit. Volvo's larger diesel engines have intake air charge heaters that are on during cranking if you need an example of what I'm thinking. I doubt this is needed on a healthy engine above zero degrees.

I would just cycle the glow plugs on and off a few times. Then I had a switch that would disable the glow plugs. That way I could safely use Ether. I never bothered installing an etherstart system, just sprayed the air filter while cranking.

 

[teleturns]

All Cummins 5.9 engines use a grid heater instead of glow plugs. IMHO a grid heater is 10 times better than glow plugs.

As for OEM block heaters they use 700 to 900 watts, so one option is to take a small generator (hopefully it will start in frigid temps)and plug the rig in for several hours before you need to get on the road. When we do over night snowmobiling trips I always take an extra battery in case the cycling of the grid heater kills my truck battery. I have never needed to use it for my Cummins.

 

[Rot Box]

I'm not directing this towards anyone here, but there is a big mis-conception when it comes to grid heaters. The reason the Cummins start better in the cold compared to the 6.2 (6.5, IDI's and PSD) is NOT because the grid heater preforms better than glowplugs its because the two said engines couldn't be any more different in design-and it happens the Cummins design favors it in those conditions. I have started my 5.9 in sub zero temps without the grid heater--try starting any diesel with indirect injection without assistance in temps colder than ~50*F--its not going to happen.

When glow plugs "glow" they will ignite diesel fuel the second they make contact in any temperature (within reason) every time. The problem is there are too many other variables in those temperatures. Battery health, glow plug circuit health, engine oil (ever try to pour 15w-40 in negative temps?), compression ratio (6.2's come in around 22:1!), injector pump timing, cranking speed/rpms etc. Combine this with a relatively poor design of the GP circuit on GM/Fords part and you can really create a headache for yourself.

To the op. A winter front (grill cover), healthy fuel system, battery's/cables, injector pump timing and a healthy glow plug circuit will make or break your relationship with the 6.2 in the winter. If the po is installing Autolites or Champion glow plugs remove them the day you get it and replace them with a quality plug. Those brands are notorious (ask me how I know) for burning out and swelling to the point they won't come out of the head :Wow1: Also the maximum amount of time a typical 6.2 plug should cycle is no more than about 15 seconds. Any more than that and they will burn themselves out...

 

[teleturns]

I'm not directing this towards anyone here, but there is a big mis-conception when it comes to grid heaters.

No mis-conception here... I have dealt with many IDI engines. Basically what I was referring to when I said grid heaters are better is "Buy a Cummins!".

Oh I have also heard oil pan heaters work great! They just might be the ticket to make an old 6.2 fire up in the cold.

 

[Buliwyf]

Cold start ability is also tied in with engine design, but the Cummins B5.9T is hardly really that different from other engines. It's just a different way to get heat into the cylinder. Nothing really else. We just need something to make the intake charge warmer for the engine to start. Glow plugs or grids, it really deosn't matter much.

If we can't plug in our block heaters, then we're stuck with glow plugs, grids, and Ether.

The old Cummins B5.9T may have a higher compression ratio. I've noticed that the old B's start extremely fast in firepump/generator applications. Often older low performance diesels had higher 18:1 compression ratios. More compression= more heat to fire off with. Also having a long stroke and smaller piston will act like an effectively higher compression ratio on start up.

Ironicly most pickup diesels are around 17.3-17.5. Anywhere between 17.3-18 should be easy to start. The old B's are only 17.0:1. Kinda low. But their simple injector pumps, that are going to dump fuel no matter what, and long strokes really help them make heat on start up.

Shorter strokes, and sluggish cold electronic ECM's and injectors are not winters best friend.
The B has a stroke of 4.72 divided by 4.0 bore = 1.18
The Ford 7.3 is 4.13/3.74 =1.10

So the B has an advantage with stroke. But not with comp ratio. Keep in mind that air heats up when it's compressed, but if your heating it faster with faster piston speeds..........that helps. The B engines also have pretty hefty starters, and good flywheel speed when cranking. It's alot of little details.

When we started adding huge turbos for better performance, we had to dial down the compression ratio a bit to keep from nuking pistons. An engine with a lower 16:1 compression ratio and a huge turbo isn't going to like starting in cold weather much.
A good example is the quad turbo MTU2000 series engines. Low comp ratio and huge turbos. Nothing touches them for throttle response and power, but they have to have block heaters, pumps, and sometimes an automatic etherstart system. Trying to get one to start when the block temp is below 0 is very, very hard.


I wouldn't worry about a 6.4 in cold weather. If you can't get it to start, and can't plug in. Put a pan fire under it, or disconnect the glow plugs and spray ether while cranking. Make sure you have STRONG batteries and a fresh starter.

 

[bfdiesel]

Make sure you have blended diesel in the winter and that you use an anti gel additive if it is going to hang out below 0F (you may not know the actual quality of the fuel or the station lies). Not sure what year your 6.2 is but if it has a rectangular filter it has a heater with it make sure it works if it is going to get sub zero as well. If you have the two round filters then the heater, if it still works, is in the line running under the intake so it won't be much help if the filter is already gelled up.

I have started mine running 30% bio diesel at 0f without having it plugged in or a filter heater on the second filter, I have the two filter setup. I let the glow plugs cycle 3-4 times like stated above and I make sure I have good fully charged batteries.

You should have one block heater already in yours on the drivers side. You can add another to the passenger side if you want it to heat up faster when plugged in. I have never ran an oil pan heater myself, but it is probably worth it if it is going to be getting -30F or lower consistently (Number is my own. It gets -40F here for some short spells, but I haven't had to start my 6.2 at those temps my Dodge has seat heaters so I usually use it when it is below -25F )

Personally I would sooner call for a ride than put ether into anything. Once you make minor bends to the connecting rods it will never start cold again (ether addiction).

"Is there such thing as a portable block heater?" propane turkey fryer

Block heater needs plugged in for 3-4 hours minimum, but time would be shorter with one on each side, but I have no experience to tell you how much.

As for finding places to plug in I carry an extension cord and have no shame plugging it in. Most places here have a place to plug in if you are going to parked there for more than a couple of hours if it isn't going to be longer than that you can just leave it running (local attitude ).

Look on the steel soldiers forum they have a lot more information since they have a lot more 6.2's and 6.5's.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/search.php?searchid=2364624 Not sure if you need an account to go to this link.

 

[charlieaarons]

. If the po is installing Autolites or Champion glow plugs remove them the day you get it and replace them with a quality plug. Those brands are notorious (ask me how I know) for burning out and swelling to the point they won't come out of the head :Wow1: Also the maximum amount of time a typical 6.2 plug should cycle is no more than about 15 seconds. Any more than that and they will burn themselves out...

Listen to this man...he knows what he is talking about - very important!!!!!

Charlie

 

[Bushbunny]

propane fired coolant heaters

My friend lived in northern Saskatchewan had no power and ran a propane fired coolant heater in an old jeep with 4cyl Perkins diesel. Said it worked great down to -40c. His looked similar to the small one these guys list http://www.enviroharvest.ca/block_heater.htm

 

[Shawn686]

I have 6.5 GM, it gets to -20F to -35F for months at a time here. An oil pan heater is what you need, these are the ones most run around here and have no issues with. http://www.canadianpolarpad.com/index.html

You will not regret getting an oil pan heater. Mine starts like it does at 50F with the oil pan heater.

Shawn

 

[Zimnij Volk]

Man, there was so much information here, I had to make a list! Thanks again for all the help guys.

I should probably change my location, as I am up in Milwaukee, WI right now. This will be my first winter here. So far it's in the teens and I'm still in a T-shirt... Everyone is looking at me like I'm insane... :wings:

I didn't think to ask on the brand of the glow plugs they were putting in it, what brand would you recommend? I plan on taking care of the 6.2 to get as much out of it as I can, so quality is big for me. (THEN I'll put a Cummins in it!)

I'm definitely going to stay away from ether... It doesn't sound like a good thing to use in the long run.

While finding a 1000 watt engine block heater for it, I also found this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Zerosta...ies&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a6d511371#ht_2459wt_905

It's made by Zerostart, and someone recommended them above. I like the fact it's magnetic and easily removable. I could place it in the oil pan if I needed.

This all made me think (Uh-oh) what if I create a sound-proof box and place a small generator in the back during the winter? If I make an exhaust hose leading out and crack the window for the cords, I wouldn't have to worry about not being able to plug it in anywhere.

 

[Rot Box]

I didn't think to ask on the brand of the glow plugs they were putting in it, what brand would you recommend? I plan on taking care of the 6.2 to get as much out of it as I can, so quality is big for me. (THEN I'll put a Cummins in it!)

When I had my 6.5 the recommended plugs were AC Delco's (factory plugs). I'd check out www.thedieselplace.com or www.thedieselpage.com for the latest recommendation specific to the 6.2. Again if they are Autolites or Champions get them out asap! :snorkel:

 

[Zimnij Volk]

When I had my 6.5 the recommended plugs were AC Delco's (factory plugs). I'd check out www.thedieselplace.com or www.thedieselpage.com for the latest recommendation specific to the 6.2. Again if they are Autolites or Champions get them out asap! :snorkel:

Actually, I DID look into some AC Delco parts at one point. They seem to be good at what they do.