Converting to hydroboost brake system

[carcrafter22]

I cant stand the braking performance on our 1996 E350 ambulance and now with the lift and 35" tires its even more noticeable. The van has always had a very squishy pedal almost like it has air in the lines but I really think its just the vacuum brakes. While I'm out of state working I'd like to get a parts list together and have all the parts at home ready to install when I get there.

I havent really found anyone thats converted a 96 E series van to hydroboost, hopefully its easy to find parts that work.I have seen the badger sportsmobile van conversion but will that same setup work for my 96? From what I can find on autozone.com 1998 was the first year you could get an E450 superduty van with hydroboost, the quesiton is will that hydroboost just bolt in?

I've swapped hydroboost into at least 12 different vehicles that I can think of right now so making something work isnt a problem (heck I have a new hydroboost from an F350 but I know its not gonna bolt in). I want something that can be bolted in place and swapped out in the middle of nowhere if needed in the future not something that requires a welder and grinder to make it fit.

So can I just order the parts from the 98 E450 and bolt it all in?

Here is the list so far, lets hear what you think about it. Remember this is for our 1996 E350

1998 E450 parts
hydroboost
master cylinder
power steering sending and return lines (3 lines total)
power steering pump (new bracket possibly due to different style pump??? not sure)
new steering gear box (mine is loose and has a leak)

 

[toddz69]

I cant stand the braking performance on our 1996 E350 ambulance and now with the lift and 35" tires its even more noticeable. The van has always had a very squishy pedal almost like it has air in the lines but I really think its just the vacuum brakes. While I'm out of state working I'd like to get a parts list together and have all the parts at home ready to install when I get there.

I havent really found anyone thats converted a 96 E series van to hydroboost, hopefully its easy to find parts that work.I have seen the badger sportsmobile van conversion but will that same setup work for my 96? From what I can find on autozone.com 1998 was the first year you could get an E450 superduty van with hydroboost, the quesiton is will that hydroboost just bolt in?

I've swapped hydroboost into at least 12 different vehicles that I can think of right now so making something work isnt a problem (heck I have a new hydroboost from an F350 but I know its not gonna bolt in). I want something that can be bolted in place and swapped out in the middle of nowhere if needed in the future not something that requires a welder and grinder to make it fit.

So can I just order the parts from the 98 E450 and bolt it all in?

Here is the list so far, lets hear what you think about it. Remember this is for our 1996 E350

1998 E450 parts
hydroboost
master cylinder
power steering sending and return lines (3 lines total)
power steering pump (new bracket possibly due to different style pump??? not sure)
new steering gear box (mine is loose and has a leak)

If you've swapped hydroboost into at least 12 different vehicles now, this should be a piece of cake for you! As I'm sure you know, the challenges boil down to slight powertrain differences between the vehicles. Without doing a google search to confirm, you probably have a 351W or 460 in your '96? If so, does it have a Saginaw canned ham power steering pump? (the vans usually did). The '98s probably have the modular engines, which would mean a different front dress between the two vehicles. I'd guess that everything in terms of the h-boost bracketry, booster, master cylinder, etc. from the '98 would work fine - you'd only have to deal with the differences with the pumps - easily solved.

Also, does your '96 have single piston or dual piston front brake calipers?

Todd Z. (who's worked on a few h-boost conversions as well...)

 

[carcrafter22]

Yes I've swapped my share of hydroboost systems but they were all custom jobs and required firewall mods, brake pedal or linkage mods, sometimes we even cut the studs off the hydroboost to make different mounting patterns. I dont want to have to do anything custom to this part of the van I really would like to see if there is something to bolt on and be done. I just dont have the time lately since I'm only home for about 1 week and gone for 30 days with my current work schedule and we leave for alaska july 1st. If it comes down to it I will just make all my own parts but again I'm really trying to stay away from that time consuming task.

I have a 1996 E350 with the 7.3L diesel engine. When I do this I plan to replace the p/s pump and gear box since they are both worn and leaking.

After searching parts websites I see the hydroboosted vans use a different p/s pump probably for more pressure due to the hydroboost. I'd imagine I could simply find a junkyard to supply me with the proper p/s pump bracket for my 7.3L powerstroke and just order a new p/s pump from autozone as well as a rebuilt steering gear box just to get those parts out of the way.

My main issue is the hydroboost bolting up to the firewall and pedal. I know from experience that not all hydroboost are the same when it comes to bolting up master cylinders so I would just buy the matching hydroboost and master cylinder and worry about adapting my brake lines to the new master. For p/s lines I'd just use the stock lines (bought new) for whatever vehicle fits the hydroboost.

I figured the 98 E450 would have the same firewall and pedal assembly basicly and that the lines would probably thread into the gear box leaving only a new p/s pump bracket to install on the 7.3L powerstroke.

I guess I'm just looking for someone to tell me these vans were the same firewall wise so I can have parts at home when I get there and get this done in the few days I will be home instead of wasting time chasing parts and getting nothing done.Any help is much appreciated.

 

[carcrafter22]

This is what my current pump looks like, just like the 80's and mid 90's mustangs, f150's, etc.

96 E350 7.3L diesel p/s pump



This is supposedly what the pump from an 98 E450 7.3L diesel looks like. This pump looks just like the one from a 4.6L engine found in 96 and newer mustangs, 97 and newer f150's, etc.



Both pumps are for the 7.3L diesel engine

 

[carcrafter22]

After a bit more searching it looks like a new pump from a 2002 F250 with 7.3L diesel will work, of course I am 1500 miles from my home and the van so I cant test it so this is theory at this point. Notice it has the extra return port of the hydroboost. This is also a stocked part at the local parts stores since F250's are everywhere. The mounting ears and size look similar to mine in the above pic and since they are both 7.3L diesels I will (for the moment hope) assume they will bolt into the same bracket. This would be great since I dont see many E450's on the road so tracking that p/s bracket down may prove difficult if its unique and I can only imagine the pain it would take to fab a bracket on a 7.3L in a van while keeping the pulley aligned etc.

2002 F250 7.3L p/s pump

 

[toddz69]

Yes I've swapped my share of hydroboost systems but they were all custom jobs and required firewall mods, brake pedal or linkage mods, sometimes we even cut the studs off the hydroboost to make different mounting patterns. I dont want to have to do anything custom to this part of the van I really would like to see if there is something to bolt on and be done. I just dont have the time lately since I'm only home for about 1 week and gone for 30 days with my current work schedule and we leave for alaska july 1st. If it comes down to it I will just make all my own parts but again I'm really trying to stay away from that time consuming task.

I have a 1996 E350 with the 7.3L diesel engine. When I do this I plan to replace the p/s pump and gear box since they are both worn and leaking.

After searching parts websites I see the hydroboosted vans use a different p/s pump probably for more pressure due to the hydroboost. I'd imagine I could simply find a junkyard to supply me with the proper p/s pump bracket for my 7.3L powerstroke and just order a new p/s pump from autozone as well as a rebuilt steering gear box just to get those parts out of the way.

My main issue is the hydroboost bolting up to the firewall and pedal. I know from experience that not all hydroboost are the same when it comes to bolting up master cylinders so I would just buy the matching hydroboost and master cylinder and worry about adapting my brake lines to the new master. For p/s lines I'd just use the stock lines (bought new) for whatever vehicle fits the hydroboost.

I figured the 98 E450 would have the same firewall and pedal assembly basicly and that the lines would probably thread into the gear box leaving only a new p/s pump bracket to install on the 7.3L powerstroke.

I guess I'm just looking for someone to tell me these vans were the same firewall wise so I can have parts at home when I get there and get this done in the few days I will be home instead of wasting time chasing parts and getting nothing done.Any help is much appreciated.

Totally forgot about the Powerstroke being an option since so few vans have them. I'm guessing your firewall and pedal assembly would be the same between the two years so the '98 parts would bolt up easily.

If your '96 already has one of the plastic CII pumps on it, you probably don't even have to change the bracket. You can go get the h-boost pump for the '98 which will have a higher pressure output and two return fittings compared to your '96 pump but be physically identical.

One other item I thought of - does your '96 have 4 wheel discs? I'm assuming the '98 might? There might be a need for a 10 lb. residual pressure valve in the rear brake line if the '96 still has rear drums and the '98 has discs. Just something to think about.

Todd Z.

 

[carcrafter22]

It looks like the 96 E350 master cylinder is 1.125 bore and the 98 E450 is 1.312 bore, IF autozone's website is correct (and I have my doubt it is) but it says both the e350 and e450 master cylinders have the same size brake line fittings. If they are the same fittings I will happily pay for the slightly bigger bore but mainly just to get a new master cylinder and know that it bolts up to the hydroboost.

So its looking like this so far

rebuilt steering gear box for 96 e350
new p/s pump for 02 F250 w/7.3L
hydroboost and master cylinder for 98 E450
With this mix of parts I have to wonder if the hoses will thread into the p/s pump and gear box? Guess we'll see.

 

[carcrafter22]

todd, thats a good question. I still need to research how the E450 came as far as rear brakes. I would imagine as long as I keep my stock proportioning valve it should be fine.

I think I will go with the 02 F250 p/s pump since it looks like my 96, the 98 e450 looks completely different and would require a new bracket and pulley to be tracked down and possibly a new engine accessory belt depending on the size of the pulley.

I only have experience with my ambulance so I cant say what changed from year to year but from all the reading I have done they seem to be about the same 92-09 the best I can tell. Hope someone can confirm they are.

 

[hobietony]

Well, I cant get to it on my work computer because it is listed as a 'blog', but this guy did a hydroboost swap on a sportsmobile, and did a great writeup on it - www.badgertrek.com - Poke around a bit, he has lots of van modifications and info

 

[carcrafter22]

Thats the one I was talking about earlier, the only info I can find actually LOL. I've got another few weeks up here to research I will probably order all the parts in 2 weeks so they are home before I am. Maybe Chris (ujoint) or dsw4x4 can chime in with the firewalls being the same or not. Its about 3/4 down on this page http://www.badgertrek.com/sportsmobile/vehicle.shtml

 

[toddz69]

It looks like the 96 E350 master cylinder is 1.125 bore and the 98 E450 is 1.312 bore, IF autozone's website is correct (and I have my doubt it is) but it says both the e350 and e450 master cylinders have the same size brake line fittings. If they are the same fittings I will happily pay for the slightly bigger bore but mainly just to get a new master cylinder and know that it bolts up to the hydroboost.

So its looking like this so far

rebuilt steering gear box for 96 e350
new p/s pump for 02 F250 w/7.3L
hydroboost and master cylinder for 98 E450
With this mix of parts I have to wonder if the hoses will thread into the p/s pump and gear box? Guess we'll see.

Looks like we were typing at the same time as you found the same info that I noted above. Yes, the CII pump with 2 returns is the '99-'04 Super Duty pump that I think will work in your application. Interesting that Ford uses the CIII pump (the small one in your pic that uses an external reservoir) as early as '98 in the P-stroke vans because they didn't switch to that style of pump in the diesels until the 6.0 came out. Since your current master is only 1.125" diameter and the '98 is 1.312", I'm 98% positive the '98 has 4 wheel discs since all the Super Duties with h-boost used that same bore master cylinder. The h-boost is powerful enough that you won't mind pushing on a larger bore master cylinder. Try it without the residual p-valve and see how it feels. I'm guessing the power steering hoses will thread into everything just fine - lengths will be the biggest unknown. Fitting sizes on the pressure/returns on the boxes are all the same and the h-boosts all use the same 16mm/18mm o-ring fittings.

The reason I asked about differences in # of pistons in the calipers is that in my experience the later model brakes (usually 2 piston) are more rigid and give a more solid pedal feel than the earlier single piston versions. I've noticed this difference between single/dual piston calipers on my Bronco and the feel of my Super Duty pedal vs. the one in my Bronco. I only note this because you mentioned a soft/squishy pedal in your original post.

Todd Z.

 

[carcrafter22]

Great info, thanks! The pedal has been this way since we bought the van and still this way after installing the 04 superduty front axle. There may be a problem with the original master cylinder sucking a very small amount of air, not sure. I've already made up my mind to just change it all out and be done with it. I agree the larger bore wont affect pedal feel enough to matter with the hydroboost. I run a superduty hydroboost and master on my 67 F100 with twin turbo isuzu diesel I built, it was perfect.

 

[dsw4x4]

carcrafter22
I would love to chime in and give you some info on the fire wall but I like you have done many hydroboost conversions and I to love them. But I have not done one on a van yet so I to do not know. I currently have a 08 superduty unit sitting in the shop and one of these days I will get around to fitting it in my van but time has not allowed it yet. So in the meantime I will watch this and see what you come up with.
Derek

 

[etbadger]

The issues I ran into doing ours (05 E350 with similar era E450 hydroboost) were:

Obtaining pressure hoses. No-one had the E450 hoses in stock, and when I finally got some there was expected to be a short adapter at the hydroboost itself. In the end it was cheaper and easier to just make custom braided lines.

I used the stock master cylinder as it was smaller bore and thus gave a greater brake-line pressure. Hydroboost appears to have sufficient travel to actuate it all the way. Adapting it was just a matter of machining a spacer of the proper length pipe. It did result in the cruise-control safety switch (on bottom end of the master) interfering with the ABS computer and valves. I relocated the ABS system a few inches to resolve this. Another option would have been to use the E450 master (clocks the switch around a bit), or plumb the safety switch remotely. Neither are probably issues if you lack ABS or Cruise-Control.

For my first attempt I obtained an F350 system, and could have made it work, but the pedal rod on the hydroboost was too long for the van (would need cutting). The E450 hydroboost showed up cheap, so I just grabbed that to avoid the hassle. The E450 hydroboost and F350 master did not match up well either, F350 master would have needed to sink into the hydroboost unit more. I would have expected them to be the same.

-e

 

[nely]

I have both a 96 & 97 psd van. Heres some differences.

The 96 has the power steering pump with reservior. 97 has a remote mount reservior and the smaller pump.

The abs on 97 and newer is below the master which interfered with the swap above. 96 has the abs module on the frame rail so that shouldnt be an issue.

We had to order lines for a customers e450 thru the dealer. They are hard to find aftermarket.

The list you have should work, in theory. But the only way is to try. Kind of an expensive guess.

I was think about the same swap in my 96 15passenger van, due to its lack of good braking. Until my customer with the e450 blew out the steering hose, causing him to loose steering and braking assist. Weighing the options the vacuum brake reservior seemed to be the safer one incase of a catastrofic failure. If you lost a belt causing both steering and vacuum pump to fail the reservior holds enough for 2 or 3 pumps b4 the vacuum is depleted. But loose powersteering and hydro boost, i hope you have some good strength in your legs.

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