Espar Airtronic and Webasto Air Top

[dzzz]

I thought I would start a thread comparing these two diesel cabin air heater brands. There's a couple good older threads on the boiler type units. Here let's compare the air heaters.

I've been looking at the specs on the newer Webasto EVO units. They have an altitude switch on the cabin controller (on non-marine units), variable output, and variable fan. Nice features.

I believe some/all of the Espar units do altitude sensing too. I'm not sure if it's an addon.

The entry level for these units as a kit seem to run about $1000. It's easier to find discounting on Espar units. The more expensive Webasto EVO line runs about twice as much. I'm not sure how the higher-end espar compares to the higher end Webasto EVO.

All units needs an exhaust muffler added to the kit.

In my analysis the entry level diesel air heater runs about 30% more than the nice Propex propane heater. The diesel unit will use less in fuel. I expect the diesel unit will have a higher maintenance cost.

Both the Webasto EVO and Propex have fairly low fan noise. Don't know about other models.

That's about all I know. Anyone using or researching these units?

 

[dzzz]

The correct control unit for the Webasto EVO units seems to be the MC05 with a high altitude setting:

The MC04 is the same controller without the altitude icon

 

[DiploStrat]

Linked to Engine Coolant

It is my understanding that some of these units can be linked to your engine cooling system - when the engine is running and hot, it produces the heat and when the engine is shut down, the diesel burner provides the heat?

Is that what you are talking about or is there another system that does this?

 

[Bill Beers]

I think dzzz is talking about cab/bunk heat. Espar, (and probably Webasto too,) makes a block heater, the D5 for one.. It pulls diesel through a 2mm suction line, burns it, and circulates warm coolant through the block.

 

[dzzz]

Yeah, these are air heaters, not boilers. Boilers are used for air heat too with a heat exchanger. The upside of a boiler for camper heat are hot water with a marine waer heater and possibly better heat distribution. The downside is cost and complexity. A boiler based system needs substantial water mass to heat to work well. Plenty of people have self-installed a $900 espar or webasto diesel air heating system into vehicles. The inexpensive air system is unlikely to be less reliable than a boiler system.

One advantage of an air system is the smallest models are about 7000btu (3kw?) output. Used in westies and sportsmobile size applications. Except for true winter camping the smallest size would work for most people. What the smallest size won't do is heat up a deeply frozen camper quickly.

 

[dzzz]

High altitude smaller heater diesel air heaters:

Webasto Airtop 2000
Apparently there is a way to set the ECU for high altitude. Procedure can be obtained from Webasto technical support.

Espar Airtronic D2 and D4
Two choices
1) $165 high altitude fuel pump. Will run a slightly reduced output at lower elevations.
2) Barometric sensor addon $350(?). Works on units built in the last several years.

Webasto 2000 for high altitude is no additional cost, it seems But it doesn't appear that a Webasto 2000 truck kit comes with a mounting plate. So costs between the two brands on the small units may be similar. Espar (the company) in the U.S. is more end-user friendly than Webasto.

 

[PSD_Tweaker]

I use the Espar, and it will keep my truck interior toasty warm with outside tems well below freezing, even 20*f.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YR_-wC4t16I/SWlkmvq75cI/AAAAAAAABHc/tFTZ1c-0100/s1600-h/Wed.+Morning+Jan.7th.JPG
Thats my wife Claire, we're in NY state at a truck stop there.
We love that little Espar!

Rick

 

[grizzlyj]

I'm beginning to think high altitude add ons are camoflage for something ideally aimed at boats. My diesel water heating Espar fills up with soot at close to its operating height limit, and has sometimes been a pain in that respect.

Maybe a petrol unit is more sensible? Then any altitude and you know you'll have heat, although I'd need to add a small petrol tank. Maybe next time.

Although Espar only do a petrol water heater it seems.

 

[dwh]

Just tossing this into the pot:

According to a few pages I've seen, MAN KATs have a Webasto air heater. Other German Army type vehicles also have them, and apparently the U500 auxiliary heater is a newer version of the same deal:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/unimog/1488170-u500-webasto-heater-information.html


I wonder how the U500 aux heater performs at altitude?

Paging Dr. Charlie...


EDIT: Oh hell...

Don, I just remembered that YOU have a U500. Does it have the Webasto aux heater?

 

[dzzz]

I'm beginning to think high altitude add ons are camoflage for something ideally aimed at boats. My diesel water heating Espar fills up with soot at close to its operating height limit, and has sometimes been a pain in that respect.

Maybe a petrol unit is more sensible? Then any altitude and you know you'll have heat, although I'd need to add a small petrol tank. Maybe next time.

Although Espar only do a petrol water heater it seems.

The market for trucks/RV heaters of this type is likely bigger than boats. With no idle laws the sleeper diesel heaters are almost a requirement.

The simple trick I believe for higher altitude operation is to set the heater up to always run lean. Most people can give up a bit if heat at lower elevation. It seems espar coolant heaters have better altitude options.

 

[dzzz]

Don, I just remembered that YOU have a U500. Does it have the Webasto aux heater?

Yeah, it has the Webasto Thermo 90 S coolant heater. That's for engine pre heat, which of course also provides cab heat. These are becoming pretty standard in better diesel vehicles that operate in the cold.

I'm leaning towards an air diesel heater for the camper, however. With the catalytic heater as a backup. I have probably 30 nights now in cool to cold weather and I see no advantage to the complexity of a boiler type diesel heater for my 13' cabin.

At freezing I need about .5kw of heat. The small webasto and espar air heaters are 4-5x that output. Seems about right.

 

[dzzz]

The entry level Webasto Airtop 2000 is programable, if this is correct:

http://sprinter-source.com/forum/showpost.php?p=108984&postcount=5

 

[LanduytG]

I guess you might say I'm bias on this subject. But over the years I can say with confidence that the Espar will have less issues that the Webasto. We supply Sportsmobile with all their Espar heaters.

As for a bigger market with RV's than boats, that is not true at all. However Espar is now starting to target RV industry.

For high altitude I would not use the the high altitude pump. I would use the electronic compensator. You will never have to worry about switching to another pump. They work really well and can be used on any newer hydronic or airtronic heater.

The biggest thing people want to do is over size the unit. Like use the Airtronic D4 where a D2 will work fine. This is the issue with Sportsmobile. These heaters work best and are the most trouble free if you can make them run and medium or high setting. When they run on low which they will if the unit is to large, they will soot up and plug the combustion chamber. I have units in for repair all the time that have over 4000-5000 hours on them and have never been apart. Average is around 3000 hours. The secrete is to let them run on higher settings and use a quality fuel.

Now for water versus air heat. In and RV I would opt for water heat any day. If you want zone heating capability water is the way to go. Plus as stated above you can heat the domestic water as well. Cost wise if you were to setup and air system for zone heating it would be about the same cost as water. Running duct work for air heating can be a real pain, unless you have metal ducting already installed on the RV. Most Rv's use plastic duct which is not capable of handling the high temperature from the Espar. With water heat you drill a 1-1/4" hole and pull the hose through. Where it can get costly with water heat is if you use silicon hose, which is all I would use. Silicon hose can be any where from $4-$7 a foot. However duct work that meets the heat requirement will cost that as well.

Greg

 

[dzzz]

That's great you've had good experience with Espar. Of course there are Webasto installers who feel the same way about their brand. I've given up trying to decide which brand is better quality. I expect the quality is similar, and the right size unit installed and set correctly is the primary determinant of trouble-free operation.

Above sea level, the gold standard is to set combustion by directly measure atmospheric pressure. That appears to be an added option on all Espar units, included with Webasto EVO air heaters, and not available on Webasto hydronic units.

Webasto claims over a million commercial truck installs. If the marine market is bigger there must be a heck of a lot of boats with Espar and Webasto heaters.

 

[LanduytG]

That's great you've had good experience with Espar. Of course there are Webasto installers who feel the same way about their brand. I've given up trying to decide which brand is better quality. I expect the quality is similar, and the right size unit installed and set correctly is the primary determinant of trouble-free operation.

Above sea level, the gold standard is to set combustion by directly measure atmospheric pressure. That appears to be an added option on all Espar units, included with Webasto EVO air heaters, and not available on Webasto hydronic units.

Webasto claims over a million commercial truck installs. If the marine market is bigger there must be a heck of a lot of boats with Espar and Webasto heaters.

Sorry I really didn't clarify it very well. The boat industry is larger than RV. Of course trucks account for the lions share.

As to quality I have worked on both and sold both. I now only sell Espar. However to be fair I know nothing about the Webasto Evo series. When it comes to marine use I would still say Espar has the larger market share. But I'm not here to knock on Webasto.

If anyone needs help we are available. As you said setup and sizing are paramount. We can heat anything that needs heated.

Greg