EV acceptance is peaking

3laine

Member
There are 3,056 public charging stations in the city of Chicago. There are 25,604 electric vehicles registered in Cook County.

Chicago is on the top ten list of cities to charge an EV in North America. You will find a Level 2 or 3 charger – also known as lightning chargers – within ten miles of any major attraction or tourist site

That number of chargers is for the entire region, all the way out to Remington, INDIANA that's 96 miles away from Chicago. See here, where that number presumably came from when you googled "how many EV chargers in Chicago?"


You're comparing apples to turtles by just googling stuff that sounds kinda plausible but is actually not meaningful.

And no, "Level 3" chargers are not called "Lightning Chargers". You're just making stuff up with that one or you got some weird google results. No one who knows anything about EVs would claim that.

Furthermore, Level 2 chargers in an entire REGION doesn't really matter for people who are traveling along a main route or doing rideshare or even who don't have charging at home, in many cases. The number of DC Fast Chargers (not called Lightning chargers) are FAR smaller. If I'm traveling through Chicago and need to charge (at ~150-250kW), then telling me there's a Level 2 charger in Remington, Indiana, 96 miles away, that charges at 6kW (only 2% of the charge rate of the DC Fast Charger) is completely irrelevant.

For *actual* DC Fast Chargers offering speeds of 150kW+, which someone would want for travel or ride share or home charging replacement, there are about 70 sites in Chicago (both Tesla and non-Tesla). Assuming ~6 chargers per site, that's 420 chargers. A notable number of those chargers are probably broken. Now there are probably 350 left. Pretty huge difference from 3,056 claimed. And not all of those are reasonably close or accessible where the issues happened. As usual, these types of issues tend to be very isolated to a handful of charging sites because of a lot of factors happening simultaneously to cause it.

This is an excellent example of how people who don't really know about EVs can google a couple numbers to rile people up despite providing no practical meaning or analysis.
 

jaxyaks

Adventurer
That number of chargers is for the entire region, all the way out to Remington, INDIANA that's 96 miles away from Chicago. See here, where that number presumably came from when you googled "how many EV chargers in Chicago?"


You're comparing apples to turtles by just googling stuff that sounds kinda plausible but is actually not meaningful.

And no, "Level 3" chargers are not called "Lightning Chargers". You're just making stuff up with that one or you got some weird google results. No one who knows anything about EVs would claim that.

Furthermore, Level 2 chargers in an entire REGION doesn't really matter for people who are traveling along a main route or doing rideshare or even who don't have charging at home, in many cases. The number of DC Fast Chargers (not called Lightning chargers) are FAR smaller. If I'm traveling through Chicago and need to charge (at ~150-250kW), then telling me there's a Level 2 charger in Remington, Indiana, 96 miles away, that charges at 6kW (only 2% of the charge rate of the DC Fast Charger) is completely irrelevant.

For *actual* DC Fast Chargers offering speeds of 150kW+, which someone would want for travel or ride share or home charging replacement, there are about 70 sites in Chicago (both Tesla and non-Tesla). Assuming ~6 chargers per site, that's 420 chargers. A notable number of those chargers are probably broken. Now there are probably 350 left. Pretty huge difference from 3,056 claimed. And not all of those are reasonably close or accessible where the issues happened. As usual, these types of issues tend to be very isolated to a handful of charging sites because of a lot of factors happening simultaneously to cause it.

This is an excellent example of how people who don't really know about EVs can google a couple numbers to rile people up despite providing no practical meaning or analysis.
Or maybe just rile up the right folks...mission accomplished...lol
 

NevadaLover

Forking Icehole
Wrong. I saw the videos and literally explained in my previous post how more chargers would greatly improve the situation because I actually understand the situation, unlike many of the people reporting on it.

I *specifically* responded to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers" and explained why too few available chargers greatly exacerbates the issue, causing people to wait, causing those who are waiting to have their batteries cool even more, causing their charging to be even slower, causing the people waiting behind them to wait even longer, causing batteries to get so cold that they either can't charge or can't charge until the charger heats the battery enough, further delaying charging and extending wait times, etc.

So, yes, extremely cold weather can cause issues with EVs, exacerbated by lack of knowledge, lack of planning, and lack of chargers. I'm not saying cold has no effect, which is what you're trying to argue even though that's NOT my point.

There were not "plenty of chargers" in Chicago, which was my point, in response to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers".

Plenty of chargers were shown in the news reports and youtube videos that I watched, some stations had empty stalls yet the cars plugged in were still deserted as they were not charging enough to also keep the occupants warm, the evidence is clear and recorded for all to see, that's the point I am making, I understand that it upsets you, not my problem, it was however as big problem for those who were affected!
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Across the entire country, for the entire year, we have a few days in one city where this becomes a notable problem. It's not an issue that affects 99% of EV buyers, and it only affects those 1% of EV owners when there's an extreme cold snap.

AND the problem could be greatly improved with better infrastructure and education.

It's a minor issue in the grand scheme of things that doesn't indicate an issue for mass adoption. Maybe people in Chicago without home charging should consider this when buying an EV, but most people don't need to worry about this.
It’s actually the opposite- if we had mass adoption then these issues would be exponentially compounded. We have some issues with minor adoption = we have major issues with mass adoption. It’ll get there - but we ain’t there yet.
 

3laine

Member
Plenty of chargers were shown in the news reports and youtube videos that I watched, some stations had empty stalls yet the cars plugged in were still deserted as they were not charging enough to also keep the occupants warm, the evidence is clear and recorded for all to see, that's the point I am making, I understand that it upsets you, not my problem, it was however as big problem for those who were affected!

If the cars were deserted, it was likely after the rush that caused the issues, and not necessarily indicative of what the situation was that caused or exacerbated the issues.

There are issues with cold, but they're absolutely exacerbated by insufficient charging stations.

Since you can't actually refute my points about how lack of chargers makes these issues worse, contrary to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers", you change the topic to "sorry that it upsets you."

Classic move for someone who can't refute actual facts of the topic, just like the guy above who literally made things up. Oh, and a bunch of you "liked" the post because it's what you wanted to hear even though it was made up nonsense.

And, people who have looked into this topic beyond "I watched a couple news videos" (where the anchor shows a "Tesla" that's on a flatbed that's actually an Audi) know that the Tesla stations at the center of this are notoriously busy even before the cold. Here's a few of the comments from Plugshare, the leading charging station review app:

Oak Brook, IL:

-all chargers in use (Jan '23)
-Full house. (Sept '23)
-All stations in use (Sept '23)
-Busy spot. Dead around here at this time of the night. (Oct '22)
-Going on 30 minutes waiting for a station to open. (Sept '22)

Evergreen Park, IL:

-Busy! No stalls open! And at 11:45pm. People, like me, charging by the airport (April '23)
-Looooooong Wait (Dec. '22)
-Busy at 8:30pm on a Friday (Oct. '21)

So, not insufficient chargers at times, plus all the ways I've explained that cold+insufficient chargers+poor understanding of EVs (like people renting them from the airport nearby) make the situation worse = A perfect storm.

It's simply a fact that insufficient chargers make this worse and that these sites sometimes have insufficient chargers even when the weather is good. Therefore, it stands to reason that insufficient chargers was an issue in this situation, despite your claims otherwise.
 

3laine

Member
It’s actually the opposite- if we had mass adoption then these issues would be exponentially compounded. We have some issues with minor adoption = we have major issues with mass adoption. It’ll get there - but we ain’t there yet.

Not necessarily. In fact, it may actually be the opposite. It depends heavily on the ratio of infrastructure to EVs. The infrastructure in the US is in its infancy. The fast-charging plug wasn't standardized until this year, for instance.

Even if the ratio of EVs to chargers doesn't change, the higher density of chargers mean the load can be spread out more reasonably, instead of it being concentrated on certain stations that take the brunt of issues like this. For instance, on a highway between major cities, there may be a really fast charger every 50 miles or so. If one gets full for some reason (broken chargers, slow EVs like Chevy Bolt clogging up the works, etc.), then with a 50-mile gap, some EVs won't have the option to just move on to the next one. If there are 5 times as many EVs, but chargers are now just 10 miles apart, the ability to spread the load improves, leading to fewer hot spots.

If we *increase* the ratio of infrastructure to EVs, then we'll probably have even fewer major issues.

EV routing software is also improving. Tesla just added the ability to see how many Teslas are en route to a Supercharger, to better determine if someone should pick a different site to avoid a "hot spot".

These types of advances will help, as well.

It's certainly not clear that adoption will cause these issues to be exponentially compounded without accounting for far more variables.
 

NevadaLover

Forking Icehole
If the cars were deserted, it was likely after the rush that caused the issues, and not necessarily indicative of what the situation was that caused or exacerbated the issues.

There are issues with cold, but they're absolutely exacerbated by insufficient charging stations.

Since you can't actually refute my points about how lack of chargers makes these issues worse, contrary to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers", you change the topic to "sorry that it upsets you."

Classic move for someone who can't refute actual facts of the topic, just like the guy above who literally made things up. Oh, and a bunch of you "liked" the post because it's what you wanted to hear even though it was made up nonsense.

And, people who have looked into this topic beyond "I watched a couple news videos" (where the anchor shows a "Tesla" that's on a flatbed that's actually an Audi) know that the Tesla stations at the center of this are notoriously busy even before the cold. Here's a few of the comments from Plugshare, the leading charging station review app:

Oak Brook, IL:

-all chargers in use (Jan '23)
-Full house. (Sept '23)
-All stations in use (Sept '23)
-Busy spot. Dead around here at this time of the night. (Oct '22)
-Going on 30 minutes waiting for a station to open. (Sept '22)

Evergreen Park, IL:

-Busy! No stalls open! And at 11:45pm. People, like me, charging by the airport (April '23)
-Looooooong Wait (Dec. '22)
-Busy at 8:30pm on a Friday (Oct. '21)

So, not insufficient chargers at times, plus all the ways I've explained that cold+insufficient chargers+poor understanding of EVs (like people renting them from the airport nearby) make the situation worse = A perfect storm.

It's simply a fact that insufficient chargers make this worse and that these sites sometimes have insufficient chargers even when the weather is good. Therefore, it stands to reason that insufficient chargers was an issue in this situation, despite your claims otherwise.

You simply can't understand that there were chargers available and still had cars that were not charging, no matter why they weren't the fact of the matter is they weren't, your simple inability to comprehend or admit that these cars were not charging while plugged in to available chargers makes me wonder why?

I didn't change anything, I made a point, and you misquoted me on that, I clearly said the point I was making and that I understand it upsets you, not my problem, it was however as big problem for those who were affected!

Now you claim the vehicle on the flatbed was an audi, I know a tesla when I see one so that is just nonsense on your part.

And the end result of this entire story was the fact that EV's, for any reason were left in charging stations, some while plugged in, while the drivers had to abandon them in the cold in order to stay warm and avoid freezing!

All this goes to prove the point that EV's are not the answer for all and America is many years away from being able to adopt a full EV program.
 
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plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Not necessarily. In fact, it may actually be the opposite. It depends heavily on the ratio of infrastructure to EVs. The infrastructure in the US is in its infancy. The fast-charging plug wasn't standardized until this year, for instance.

Even if the ratio of EVs to chargers doesn't change, the higher density of chargers mean the load can be spread out more reasonably, instead of it being concentrated on certain stations that take the brunt of issues like this. For instance, on a highway between major cities, there may be a really fast charger every 50 miles or so. If one gets full for some reason (broken chargers, slow EVs like Chevy Bolt clogging up the works, etc.), then with a 50-mile gap, some EVs won't have the option to just move on to the next one. If there are 5 times as many EVs, but chargers are now just 10 miles apart, the ability to spread the load improves, leading to fewer hot spots.

If we *increase* the ratio of infrastructure to EVs, then we'll probably have even fewer major issues.

EV routing software is also improving. Tesla just added the ability to see how many Teslas are en route to a Supercharger, to better determine if someone should pick a different site to avoid a "hot spot".

These types of advances will help, as well.

It's certainly not clear that adoption will cause these issues to be exponentially compounded without accounting for far more variables.
Do you drive an EV?
 

3laine

Member
You simply can't understand that there were chargers available and still had cars that were not charging,
False premise. I already said the cold itself presents problems. You're continuing to argue against a strawman to avoid admitting the obvious impact that too little infrastructure has on exacerbating these problems. Watching videos from the next morning where there are "chargers available" doesn't prove that all these people were able to show up and immediately plug in. If they weren't, that would make the problem worse and more likely to end in stranded cars, as thoroughly explained.

no matter why

Yeah, it DOES matter why when you claimed there were "plenty of EV chargers" implying that wasn't a major contributing factor. THAT is what I'm arguing against, not pretending that no cars died. The "why" is literally the topic, despite your attempts to move the goalposts to lots of things I didn't say.

they weren't the fact of the matter is they weren't, your simple inability to comprehend or admit that these cars were not charging while plugged in to available chargers makes me wonder why?

Strawman. I've admitted they weren't charging and that some got stranded. That's not up for debate. The question is regarding your claim that there were "plenty of chargers" and that wasn't a major contributor to the issue (it was).

I didn't change anything, I made a point, and you misquoted me on that, I clearly said the point I was making and that I understand it upsets you, not my problem

Again, pretending someone is upset to distract from your inability to stay on topic and refute actual points.

, it was however as big problem for those who were affected!

Obviously. And no one said otherwise.

Now you claim the vehicle on the flatbed was an audi, I know a tesla when I see one so that is just nonsense on your part.


Go to 1:00 in this video. That's not to say there weren't Teslas that got towed. The point is, we can't trust the commentary from any of these people who don't know even the most basic info about EVs.

And the end result of this entire story was the fact that EV's, for any reason were left in charging stations, some while plugged in, while the drivers had to abandon them in the cold in order to stay warm and avoid freezing!
Yeah, we're talking about what those reasons are. You claim it's not substantially because of infrastructure, that there are "plenty of EV chargers", but evidence shows that those stations are often full, even in better weather and late at night, so it's very likely that there were insufficient chargers and that greatly exacerbated the issue via the many methods I've already thoroughly explained.

All this goes to prove the point that EV's are not the answer for all and America is many years away from being able to adopt a full EV program.

Again, with the strawmen. I never said otherwise, and this is not the topic.

There are still plenty of use cases where EVs aren't the right choice.

But I'm responding to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers" implying the issue could not be greatly mitigated by better infrastructure.
 

jaxyaks

Adventurer
If the cars were deserted, it was likely after the rush that caused the issues, and not necessarily indicative of what the situation was that caused or exacerbated the issues.

There are issues with cold, but they're absolutely exacerbated by insufficient charging stations.

Since you can't actually refute my points about how lack of chargers makes these issues worse, contrary to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers", you change the topic to "sorry that it upsets you."

Classic move for someone who can't refute actual facts of the topic, just like the guy above who literally made things up. Oh, and a bunch of you "liked" the post because it's what you wanted to hear even though it was made up nonsense.

And, people who have looked into this topic beyond "I watched a couple news videos" (where the anchor shows a "Tesla" that's on a flatbed that's actually an Audi) know that the Tesla stations at the center of this are notoriously busy even before the cold. Here's a few of the comments from Plugshare, the leading charging station review app:

Oak Brook, IL:

-all chargers in use (Jan '23)
-Full house. (Sept '23)
-All stations in use (Sept '23)
-Busy spot. Dead around here at this time of the night. (Oct '22)
-Going on 30 minutes waiting for a station to open. (Sept '22)

Evergreen Park, IL:

-Busy! No stalls open! And at 11:45pm. People, like me, charging by the airport (April '23)
-Looooooong Wait (Dec. '22)
-Busy at 8:30pm on a Friday (Oct. '21)

So, not insufficient chargers at times, plus all the ways I've explained that cold+insufficient chargers+poor understanding of EVs (like people renting them from the airport nearby) make the situation worse = A perfect storm.

It's simply a fact that insufficient chargers make this worse and that these sites sometimes have insufficient chargers even when the weather is good. Therefore, it stands to reason that insufficient chargers was an issue in this situation, despite your claims otherwise.

Number of vehicles per the Illinois Govt stats

https://www.ilsos.gov/departments/vehicles/statistics/electric/2024/electric011524.pdf


No matter the reason the EV's were having trouble during the blizzard, there is one way to make sure that you don't have that kind of issue when you need your vehicle the most.
 
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3laine

Member
Number of vehicles per the Illinois Govt stats

https://www.ilsos.gov/departments/vehicles/statistics/electric/2024/electric011524.pdf


Yes, I already posted that link from Plugshare.

The point is that Cook county is way smaller than the area that has 3,063 charging stations. It's like me saying "There are a million EVs in FL and 2 million charging stations in the US!" as if those are the same thing.

The 3,063 charging stations are for an area covering 10+ counties in parts of 3 states. The number of EVs is one county.

Also, the people charging in these videos don't have 3,063 options. They have far, far fewer than that because they want DC Fast charging at ~150kW+, not 240V charging at 6kW.

No matter the reason the EV's were having trouble during the blizzard, there is one way to make sure that you don't have that kind of issue when you need your vehicle the most.

Yeah, they're not the right option for everyone. I probably wouldn't buy one if I couldn't charge at home, like some of these people in these videos.

But the discussion is: were there "plenty of EV chargers" or was overstressed infrastructure in a few locations a major contributor to this relatively isolated incident, despite similarly cold temps across a lot of the northern US.
 

jaxyaks

Adventurer
Yes, I already posted that link from Plugshare.

The point is that Cook county is way smaller than the area that has 3,063 charging stations. It's like me saying "There are a million EVs in FL and 2 million charging stations in the US!" as if those are the same thing.

The 3,063 charging stations are for an area covering 10+ counties in parts of 3 states. The number of EVs is one county.

Also, the people charging in these videos don't have 3,063 options. They have far, far fewer than that because they want DC Fast charging at ~150kW+, not 240V charging at 6kW.



Yeah, they're not the right option for everyone. I probably wouldn't buy one if I couldn't charge at home, like some of these people in these videos.

But the discussion is: were there "plenty of EV chargers" or was overstressed infrastructure in a few locations a major contributor to this relatively isolated incident, despite similarly cold temps across a lot of the northern US.
I think the discussion for most was....these things suck in cold weather and really suck in extreme cold weather...
 

NevadaLover

Forking Icehole
False premise. I already said the cold itself presents problems. You're continuing to argue against a strawman to avoid admitting the obvious impact that too little infrastructure has on exacerbating these problems. Watching videos from the next morning where there are "chargers available" doesn't prove that all these people were able to show up and immediately plug in. If they weren't, that would make the problem worse and more likely to end in stranded cars, as thoroughly explained.



Yeah, it DOES matter why when you claimed there were "plenty of EV chargers" implying that wasn't a major contributing factor. THAT is what I'm arguing against, not pretending that no cars died. The "why" is literally the topic, despite your attempts to move the goalposts to lots of things I didn't say.



Strawman. I've admitted they weren't charging and that some got stranded. That's not up for debate. The question is regarding your claim that there were "plenty of chargers" and that wasn't a major contributor to the issue (it was).



Again, pretending someone is upset to distract from your inability to stay on topic and refute actual points.



Obviously. And no one said otherwise.




Go to 1:00 in this video. That's not to say there weren't Teslas that got towed. The point is, we can't trust the commentary from any of these people who don't know even the most basic info about EVs.


Yeah, we're talking about what those reasons are. You claim it's not substantially because of infrastructure, that there are "plenty of EV chargers", but evidence shows that those stations are often full, even in better weather and late at night, so it's very likely that there were insufficient chargers and that greatly exacerbated the issue via the many methods I've already thoroughly explained.



Again, with the strawmen. I never said otherwise, and this is not the topic.

There are still plenty of use cases where EVs aren't the right choice.

But I'm responding to your claim that there were "plenty of EV chargers" implying the issue could not be greatly mitigated by better infrastructure.

And all the typing you have done still can't refute the one inimitable fact in all this, the cold caused people to abandon their vehicles in order to stay warm and alive, yes America needs better infrastructure and more chargers for the amount of EV's currently on the street, but that doesn't help the people that went thru this event and others like it!

For whatever reason, you have chosen to die on the hill that it was a lack of chargers that caused all this, even though cars were plugged in and still wouldn't charge you keep blaming the lack of chargers?

If I owned an EV in that situation and got it plugged in and it wouldn't charge, I wouldn't give a damn why it wouldn't charge, the simple fact that it was plugged in and I had to leave it to get to somewhere warm would make that car leave my stable never to return!
 

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