Full plastics for all glacier travel? Boot choices?

[SEREvince]

Calling all mountaineers! Some friends and I are are looking at doing Gran Paridiso and Mont Blanc over 4th of July. I would rate everyone as moderatly experienced on average. Most have multiple 14nrs and some summer glacier travel/ ice climbing experience. I would rate myself the least qualified. I have not done any mountaineering. I did do a 3 day ice climbing/ crevasse rescue course in 04 and have extensive hiking/backpack experience.

One big question mark is boots! Alot of what we have read recomends full plastic mountaineering boots. I personally don't want to drop $400-$500 on a pair of boots I'll "need" 2-3 times max. Not to mention that I feel 4+lbs of boots is overkill for the amount of weight we'll be carrying.

We've talked renting, but we all agree that boot can make or break the trip so renting could be a huge risk.

My argument is that the vert/ overhang ice climbing I did was wearing Danners and strap on crampons! Granted they were short pitches. We bivied on the glacier and between the climbing and crevasse rescue work we did I never experienced any problems wearing good ol Danner combat boots and strap on crampons.


The routes we are planning are just crossing glaciers, not technical climbing. And from what we've gathered is that most of the routes have fixed ropes and ladder bridges! I don't understand how I would need full plastics, especially since the only tool we'll be carrying is a single mountaineering ax. I imagine front pointing with a single tool is difficult, let alone the wrong tool!

I am leaning towards just wearing my Asolo fsn 95 GTX hiking boots. Am I going to regret it?

Any other thoughts?

Thanks

Vince

 

[redbeard]

I have a pair of Raichle full plastic boots, and they aren't too heavy or pricey. Granted that was a few years back, but they don't feel heavier than my leather mountaineering boots, and they came in around $230 (I'm guessing) and if I remember I got them for $50 off. These were the same model as their plastic "Swiss Army" boots (as in used by the swiss army). Not sure you can find them anymore. http://www.raichle.ch and reading the internet looks like Mammut got them http://www.mammut.ch

The two advantages of Plastic is waterproof and warmer. Having the inner boots is nice around a cold cabin.

-Mike

 

[DaveInDenver]

From your description, plastic boots didn't spring to mind as absolute requirement (summer mountaineering). But being in Italy I'm surprised boots are that expensive. Here in the US you can get Scarpa Infernos for about $300 and Omegas for about $375. These are plastic technical mountaineering boots made in Italy.

But that said, your Asolos 95 GTXs will really not be appropriate I'd think. The soles aren't stout enough to take crampons well. There is a difference between them fitting and them fitting efficiently (it's a real pain if your crampons keep working themselves off every 500 feet). Plastic boots in the summer will be very hot. The only reason I could really see for plastic in your case might be waterproofness. Leather boots are reasonably waterproof, but plastic are absolutely going to stay dry.

Personally, I had a set of Koflach boots that I sold about 10 years ago and have since used heavy leather mountaineering boots. As a 20-something I thought I was all bad and was gonna be this super climber. Turns out plastic boots were way overkill for Colorado and useless for regular hiking in the summer, clumsy and really hot.

I use a set of Merrell Liberty Ridge double tongue leather boots with my Grivel G12 crampons with good success here. Not so much pure glacier travel, but snow and scree fields mostly. I would probably be looking for something warmer if I ever get to Alaska, but they are sufficient so far. I'd also consider pressing my heavy backpacking boots into service, Scarpa SL M3.

If I was buying a set of general purpose mountaineering boots now, I would be looking at La Sportiva Evos or a Scarpa Charmoz type of boot. But keep in mind that good mountaineering boots are not going to be cheap in either leather or plastic. I would expect to spend about $250 in any case. The advantage of leather isn't cost as much as comfort, weight and how long it takes to break them in. Plastic excels in stiffness (technical), warmth and waterproofness. Although with Gore-Tex or proper conditioning leather can be OK waterproof-wise and it's possible for a boot to be too hot. Leather breaths much better when your feet are really sweaty, which in July is not a trivial thing.

There are advantages to plastic double boots. Like redbeard says, having hut boots is nice. I use plastic tele boots and they are head and shoulders better than the old leathers we used to use. I can't imagine every going back to leather telemark boots. But hiking in them, yeah not so much fun.

 

[redbeard]

I'll second that good leather mountaineers would probably work . I didnt mention the reason I got the plastics was because of winter on the 14ers, when it was kind of cold (usually -20 to 20). I did suffer minor frostbite on January day about 10 years ago, and it hurts when your toes thaw! A pair of solid leather mountaineering boots also work better on rocks.

 

[Christophe Noel]

I've done some alpineering in the Chamonix valley, but it's been a while. I went to Chamonix after a few years honing my skills in Colorado, the Sierras, etc. I'm a confident ice climber and mountaineer with lots of Alaska time, but I about crapped my pants the first time I roped up in the Chamonix valley. That's the big time, boys. Chamonix breeds two types of climbers. There's the tourist climber that knocks around the cafes and side streets with neatly folded ropes and zinc on their noses while talking about the exploits of Messner. Then there's the real deal. Skinny, wirey, short little mountain gnomes who bang out a climb like it's a daily commute. I was certainly in the middle and intimidated as all hell. There's a reason why one of the most famous climbing destinations is the cemetary in Cham. It fosters respect and soul searching.

As for boots, plastics are often recommended up there because of the often wet, Cascades-like conditions. My boot of choice is a Scarpa Assault which is a very burly leather alpining boot. My plastics....sold. If you go leather just get something with a very tall rand and pair it with a super nice gator and that will go far towards dry dogs.

And if you go to the Cham valley to climb, you better arrive with chest thumping confidence. I'd recommend taking the Aquile du Midi Telepharique up to the observation point prior to just walking into the hills. It'll scare you silly, but it helps to size up your challenge.

If you look in the fall Overland Journal in the tent review (op eds), there's a photo of me standing in front of the Aquile Vert. BIIIIIG spires.

 

[Christophe Noel]

By the way.....I've seen guys up there do some amazingly steep couls with a single axe. I watched a guy overtake us on front point with alarming speed. He had just one axe and redefined what I thought was proper french technique. Dude was hauling.

 

[SEREvince]

Thanks for the inputs. I am leaning towards buying a pair of decent leather mountaineering boots. Probably towards the lighter weight end of the spectrum.

Several of the big brands are made here in Italy, but figure in the Euro rate and the 30% IVA (sales tax) and it's way cheaper to buy Italian goods from the US! FYI: If your just visiting you can get reimbursed the sales tax.

 

[Christophe Noel]

I think Dave in Denver offered good suggestions. The Scarpa line has great boots. I think my Scarpa Assualts are slightly scaled down versions of the Nepal Top and I love those boots. The La Sportiva Makalu is a classic light mountaineering leather boot. I know a few guys that have used those on everything from heavy backpacking to front point ice. Not super warm, but that's not a bad thing.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I've done some alpineering in the Chamonix valley, but it's been a while. I went to Chamonix after a few years honing my skills in Colorado, the Sierras, etc. I'm a confident ice climber and mountaineer with lots of Alaska time, but I about crapped my pants the first time I roped up in the Chamonix valley. That's the big time, boys.

That was my plan when moving here, get good and go places. Turns out I'm not a crap-my-pants climber and realized I would never be one. Having nice looking boots while just sipping beers in Silverplume was silly. So I got more appropriate boots and spent the difference on a nice shell. I don't have 0.1% of the experience you do, but I understood there are routes in Chamonix that make our hard and extreme routes look like playtime, but that you could do tamer stuff there, too, that are doable for practiced non-pros. Wrong? I guess my point is that the Alps and the Dolomites were where the boots that the Italians make were bred, so it would seem logical that a burly leather boot would be sufficient for the trade routes.

 

[teotwaki]

If you go the leather route you can always pack some lightweight chemical toe warmers for cold days. Stay hydrated and dress well. As said before be sure the boots fit right and break them in. I highly recommend Bridgedale socks.

 

[redbeard]

I'll add I have a pair of LaSportiva K2's and I love them. the next up was the k3's and they were insulated, and I have friends that love those (and would wear them working at the south pole and hiking during the summer if it wasnt hot out). If I had one boot to pick, I'd go with the K3's (covers both my summer and winter in CO), but as I had the K2's, I needed insulation (I have supergators, but they didnt stay on well enough) so I got the Raichle plastics.

I must say the Raichle's are lighter than most plastics, but probably are not as warm either. They feel about the same as my K2's, though a little clumsier. I like them because they are a slimmer boot than most plastics.

 

[Christophe Noel]

I don't have 0.1% of the experience you do, but I understood there are routes in Chamonix that make our hard and extreme routes look like playtime, but that you could do tamer stuff there, too, that are doable for practiced non-pros. Wrong? .

When I lived in Fort Collins in the early 90s, I was pretty comfortable on any of the biggie Colorado climbs like those on Longs Peak. I solo'ed the Key Hole route on a Saturday and lead all of Kiener's Route on the following Sunday. This was only a few weeks prior to going to Chamonix. I was not only mountian fit, but I was feeling honed. When I showed up in Chamonix a few weeks later, I was pretty pumped, then I came nose to nose with real Chamonix climbing I was scared like a little gir. Colorado might have 100 hard lines in the entire state. You can access 300 much harder lines right from downtown Chamonix!! It is true there are some "ascender" lines that are more or less just one foot in front of the other, but even those require you be very, very swift and insanely fit.

 

[Rallyroo]

That is truly a l-o-n-g time classic. That's the mountaineering equivalent of a Land Cruiser or Defender.

I have a pair of La Sportiva Makalu's. They're almost 7 years old, and still going strong. I like your analogy....so....um....where's my Defender?! :jump: I wish it was true.

 

[SEREvince]

When I showed up in Chamonix a few weeks later, I was pretty pumped, then I came nose to nose with real Chamonix climbing I was scared like a little gir. Colorado might have 100 hard lines in the entire state. You can access 300 much harder lines right from downtown Chamonix!! It is true there are some "ascender" lines that are more or less just one foot in front of the other, but even those require you be very, very swift and insanely fit.

Thanks for putting it into perspective! We have been going back and forth between:

HOLY CRAP 60+ people DIE each SEASON climbing in the area!

to:

The major routes are basically cattle chutes with the main danger being all the traffic....

 

[Christophe Noel]

Thanks for putting it into perspective! We have been going back and forth between:

HOLY CRAP 60+ people DIE each SEASON climbing in the area!

to:

The major routes are basically cattle chutes with the main danger being all the traffic....

Like any mountain environment, in the Mt. Blanc area there are ample avenues to getting in the climbing experience you seek. My advice would be to not get too fixated on a particular peak or route. That's usually what gets people into trouble. They select a peak, find the easiest route up that peak and find out at 2pm they're in up to their eyeballs in trouble. A better method is to evaluate your skill and fitness level and pick an objective on par with that level of ability. As a confident alpinist myself, that immediately ruled out the vast majority of climbs in the area. And the accident volume in that area is the stuff of legend. There's seldom a day when the rescue helos are not in the air. I still recommend going as it's phenominal terrain, but go in extremely fit and prepared. Honestly, boots are a minimal concern in the big scheme.