good theory as to how it missed the mark.

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
I still don't comprehend as to how the engine Buick designed for a car going into a series/defender in my example was any different than the merc bits used in a car going into a gwagon. I'm missing your initial point.

In the uk for popularity they were similar to the gm LS. They were common, compact footprint, lightweight, made good power and were easily swapped around in the uk before rover bought the design.

My point was the rover wasn't a very good comparison because rover kind of did the equivalent of putting an LS into the Grenadier.
 

nickw

Adventurer
you take a 3500lb 180hp jeep and put an axle thats designed to last 100000 miles under 7000lb 400hp truck and is 100% stronger than needed to reach fail. Is it more reliable for that 100000 miles?

No really. it's still the same amount of rotations under loads that never cause any appreciable wear. You may save on brakes.

Add bigger tires with more kinetic energy? now you've got a reason to enlarge. and that's durability. not reliability.
The 100% stronger is what I'd argue with - we know other vehicles of sim size that are both reliable and durable. Jeep for instance used D60 axles (at least on the back) on it's military spec Jeep and have gone to a "Full Float" hybrid design on new Jeeps. The ROW LC 60/70s and domestic 80's all had Full Float rear axles along with the Patrols. It's not universal but axles are a great indicator of intended use because R&P and Axle diameters generally have torque ratings.

I used to have a chart listing all the axle specs (torque) that various Spicer / Jeep / Bronco axles could handle but can't find it. If we knew the model # and specs of the IG axles we could probably look it up.
 
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nickw

Adventurer
I still don't comprehend as to how the engine Buick designed for a car going into a series/defender in my example was any different than the merc bits used in a car going into a gwagon. I'm missing your initial point.
Maybe not drastically different but the "LS" engines used in cars are generally a bit different than the "LS" engines used in trucks. Same can be said for the 2.3L EB used in the Ranger vs car, it got additional forged parts and upgrades to handle added stress. I'm not a SBC expert but I know the industrial SBCs are built different to the automotive ones. Merc is an interesting one because they used the same engine in the cars vs the G's but it was an "industrial" type engine....which is why the damn cars were so reliable and durable.

I still think the B58 / Trans which was designed for fuel economy and performance at a price point plucked from a light duty platform is a very different animal than a proven old school Buick engine that stood the test of time in a 4x4 platform or a in-house designed engine...at least it is to me.
 

Copple

Member
I still like my Grenadier. Our 2015 G550 has had approximately $15-20k in warranty work completed on it between 45,000-70,000 miles (bought pre-owned MB Certified). This doesn’t take into account the rust and re-paint around the windshield that they actually fixed, to my shock but my wife can be convincing. I’m sorry but holding the GWagon up as the end-all example of dependability is far from the truth. I still like it though, just please don’t say the word ‘window regulator’ around it. Would be akin to someone spouting something from a Harry Potter novel and POOF! there goes another window that won’t roll back up and $500….the New Defender I had that people love also had $8,000 in warranty work (for two headlights) for reference on those ‘other off road equivalents’. Liked that car too though.

I suppose the point I’m making is we can all pick apart just about any vehicle we’d like based on the info available online. I’m still happy that Ineos brought it to the states. Ironically if they hadn’t we’d all be pining and moaning about the disservice and shortsightedness of not including us.

All I can say is that from my own personal experience, coming from a G550 and New Defender HSE, the grenadier feels more robust and dependable. Suppose we’ll find out in the next 10 years how it stands up but I’m optimistic.

I also don’t know the spline thingy but have been having fun doing some moderate off road days with the kids. All I
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
I still like my Grenadier. Our 2015 G550 has had approximately $15-20k in warranty work completed on it between 45,000-70,000 miles (bought pre-owned MB Certified). This doesn’t take into account the rust and re-paint around the windshield that they actually fixed, to my shock but my wife can be convincing. I’m sorry but holding the GWagon up as the end-all example of dependability is far from the truth. I still like it though, just please don’t say the word ‘window regulator’ around it. Would be akin to someone spouting something from a Harry Potter novel and POOF! there goes another window that won’t roll back up and $500….the New Defender I had that people love also had $8,000 in warranty work (for two headlights) for reference on those ‘other off road equivalents’. Liked that car too though.

I suppose the point I’m making is we can all pick apart just about any vehicle we’d like based on the info available online. I’m still happy that Ineos brought it to the states. Ironically if they hadn’t we’d all be pining and moaning about the disservice and shortsightedness of not including us.

All I can say is that from my own personal experience, coming from a G550 and New Defender HSE, the grenadier feels more robust and dependable. Suppose we’ll find out in the next 10 years how it stands up but I’m optimistic.

I also don’t know the spline thingy but have been having fun doing some moderate off road days with the kids. All I
Those two vehicles have never been thought of as dependable so it’s a pretty low bar.
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
The 100% stronger is what I'd argue with - we know other vehicles of sim size that are both reliable and durable. Jeep for instance used D60 axles (at least on the back) on it's military spec Jeep and have gone to a "Full Float" hybrid design on new Jeeps. The ROW LC 60/70s and domestic 80's all had Full Float rear axles along with the Patrols. It's not universal but axles are a great indicator of intended use because R&P and Axle diameters generally have torque ratings.

I used to have a chart listing all the axle specs (torque) that various Spicer / Jeep / Bronco axles could handle but can't find it. If we knew the model # and specs of the IG axles we could probably look it up.
It was theoretical statement intended to demonstrate the difference between reliability and durability, which is often confused. Merely using stouter parts intended to be durable in a heavier truck, does not result in increased reliability if used in a lighter truck.
 

nickw

Adventurer
It was theoretical statement intended to demonstrate the difference between reliability and durability, which is often confused. Merely using stouter parts intended to be durable in a heavier truck, does not result in increased reliability if used in a lighter truck.
I've brought that up too, trust me, I get it. Same can be said on the opposite end, light duty parts on a HD rig, regardless of how 'reliable' they are, will lack durability. But - it's hard to test reliability, especially on a new rig, but we do have some good metrics to test durability based on mechanical specs.

I'm trying to stay out of the theoretical lane.....trying to work with what we know, which as this point, is not much.

Lets not even get into the other concept of "repairability", the third item on the Venn diagram of vehicle selection...
 

Highlander

The Strong, Silent Type
The lindy effect is about resistance to change

No, it not just that although it contains those attributes.
It's about inbuilt resilience that allows an X to withstand the time and changes.
See Taleb's Skin in The Game.
 
It was theoretical statement intended to demonstrate the difference between reliability and durability, which is often confused. Merely using stouter parts intended to be durable in a heavier truck, does not result in increased reliability if used in a lighter truck.
This is an important point. The Grenadier enthusiasts - and I think of myself as an enthusiast - tend to look at the durable parts (robust frame, relatively robust axles, relatively robust front end components, etc.) and assume that this will result in a reliable vehicle. While the Grenadier may have fewer ECUs than a similarly priced Land Rover or BMW, it is still a pretty "high tech" machine. The super-stout frame isn't going to be much consolation if the vehicle's electronics (broadly speaking) leave you stranded.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
This is an important point. The Grenadier enthusiasts - and I think of myself as an enthusiast - tend to look at the durable parts (robust frame, relatively robust axles, relatively robust front end components, etc.) and assume that this will result in a reliable vehicle. While the Grenadier may have fewer ECUs than a similarly priced Land Rover or BMW, it is still a pretty "high tech" machine. The super-stout frame isn't going to be much consolation if the vehicle's electronics (broadly speaking) leave you stranded.

It doesn't take much anymore. Snag the wiring for a wheel speed sensor on a stick and poof, your Jeep just lost 4wd and cruise control. In the wrong area losing 4wd isn't far from losing everything.
 

zimm

Expedition Leader
This is an important point. The Grenadier enthusiasts - and I think of myself as an enthusiast - tend to look at the durable parts (robust frame, relatively robust axles, relatively robust front end components, etc.) and assume that this will result in a reliable vehicle. While the Grenadier may have fewer ECUs than a similarly priced Land Rover or BMW, it is still a pretty "high tech" machine. The super-stout frame isn't going to be much consolation if the vehicle's electronics (broadly speaking) leave you stranded.
Just stick with the frame and leave the tech out of it. does the heavier frame make it more reliable in and of itself?

If I'm picking up 2000lb loads with an steel shackle with a 3000lb wwl (and 5x failure), does using one with a 10,000lb wwl increase my odds of repeated success???

Contrary to the weight making the system more reliable, it stresses all the other systems it has to work with. My f350's have bigger brakes that need more frequent replacing than my f150's. empty or not.
 

nickw

Adventurer
Just stick with the frame and leave the tech out of it. does the heavier frame make it more reliable in and of itself?

If I'm picking up 2000lb loads with an steel shackle with a 3000lb wwl (and 5x failure), does using one with a 10,000lb wwl increase my odds of repeated success???

Contrary to the weight making the system more reliable, it stresses all the other systems it has to work with. My f350's have bigger brakes that need more frequent replacing than my f150's. empty or not.
That gets into design / engineering limits to a certain extent. There is a reason rigs like FJ40's and Merc 240D's from the 80s are still used in 3rd world conditions, they were not only engineered and built well but their components were built to a standard that far exceeded need, factor of safety if you will. Blind "overbuilding" is a fools errand akin to slapping 1T axles on a 1/2T rig, it doesn't work due to upstream constraints, but using your example I'd bet a 10k shackle will last longer given the context of potential overloading, working outside intended design limits, environmental factors like corrosion and general wear and tear.....all things you see on overland / work rigs.

1707423418146.png

When looking at a 'work' truck like a LC70 you see the same sorts of things you see on 3/4T+ trucks, large rear axle commensurate with high GVWR, full float rear axle architecture, HD frame, low(ish) power relative to drivetrain strength (this seems to be changing with the big power diesels as of late), simple / proven engine designs, robust cooling system, easy repair workflow, etc. etc.
 

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