GVWR vs. Payload and possible issues with excess weight

[Stereo]

I have a 4WD, V-6, manual transmission, extended-cab Tacoma. The GVWR is 5100lbs. With my aging pop-top camper, spouse and dog, I'm carrying close to 5500lbs which exceeds the GVWR by almost 400 lbs. Curiously though, I'm just at the max recommended payload (camper and family = 5500. Truck alone = 3915; Payload = 5500 minus 3915 = 1585). Which is the more critical figure, GVWR or payload and why?

What are the safety and maintenance risks manifested by exceeding GVWR? Some people claim that manufacturers build in a safety factor but unless those people are engineers for the auto makers, I'm not sure how they'd know that to be true.

I've been driving my rig for three years and don't have any handling issues. I have air bags (which I know don't change the carrying capacity).

At some point, I'll need to replace my camper. The obvious weight winners are FWC and ATC but Northstar makes the MC600 that fits a Tacoma.
Though known for build quality, Northstar's are much heavier than the other two. A used MC600 I'm eyeing now has a dry weight of 1170. Loaded, that's going to exceed my current camper by what I'm guessing would be another 65 pounds. I prefer the Nothstar's features to the FWC - underbed storage and crank roof in particular- but I am worried about the weight.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[Stereo]

Northstar weight vs FWC

I just found an estimated "wet" weight for a[n assumed base model] FWC Eagle - 1552 lbs

Dry weight, 800 pounds + 20 gallons fresh, 166.8 pounds + 2x 10-pound full propane tanks, 20 pounds + 1 battery, 65 pounds + stuff, 500 pounds = 1,551.8 pounds. I'd only carry 5-6 gal of water (48 lbs max) and one propane tank. 500 pounds of "stuff" must include people 'cause if we pack 100 pounds, I'd be surprised.

Should I hold out for a FWC or ATC to keep that extra 300+ pounds off? Oh wait. When I add the "extras" on the FWC base weight to match what exists on the Northstar, they're within about 1-200 lbs of each other.

800 lbs base

70 frig (though I'd need to subtract the weight of the ice box in the FWC)
25 furnace
8 power fan
70 outside shower
100 jacks (though I'm not sure if the jacks are included in the dry weight quote for the Northstar)
_______
278 extra pounds

 

[IdaSHO]

Which is the more critical figure, GVWR or payload and why?

Thats an easy one.

Payload is simply GVWR - curb weight.

GVWR is non negotiable.

Payload is fictitious number used for marketing.


Much like horsepower ratings. They are a function of the MUCH more important measure, torque.

But the industry has always used horsepower for marketing. So that's what we here and see.

 

[DVexile]

The payload numbers are usually marketing BS in which they take the lightest version (e.g. 4 cyl regular cab 2wd) and strip out everything they can get away with (e.g. GM was caught removing center consoles and bumpers to increase their payload numbers) and then weigh that impractical and non-existent configuration and subtract from GVWR. No truck you could ever buy from a dealer will actually have a payload that matches the advertised numbers, it will be hundreds less for all "real" configurations.

GVWR is what matters. And you can't put any kind of camper - even an FWC - on a Tacoma and not exceed GVWR once you have some passengers and minimal camping gear. Everyone on here with a pop up camper on a Tacoma is over GVWR when loaded for camping. You'll only stay under with a shell or FlipPac and careful packing.

But of course lots of people drive with campers on Tacomas running hundreds over GVWR and the trucks keep going. Obviously they brake and handle worse and safety is reduced. How much is the added risk? I have no idea.

 

[JHa6av8r]

No truck you could ever buy from a dealer will actually have a payload that matches the advertised numbers, it will be hundreds less for all "real" configurations.

This isn't quite correct. When I ordered my 2013 Chevy 3500 HD, Chevy had a configuration tool on their website. I built the truck I wanted and a payload was shown. The truck was put on the scales after delivery and it was within 100 lbs of what the configuration tool calculated. Don't know if it's still there but it worked great for me.

 

[lqhikers]

Stereo,

i have a 2015 access cab 4x4 manual trans tacoma with northstar mc600 pop up camper Stock except for firestone ride rite air bags.

you are right you will be overloaded.

but i feel that if you understand this and adjust your driving style and remember you have a loaded truck life will be just fine.

now saying this you will get bashed by many as a danger to all mankind,animals,road base's,trails etc.

i made e recent post over at wander the west site showing my weights,mpg,etc.

would link post but lack computer knowledge to do so.

and will admit i have never had a rig that was not overloaded (except my 2013 ford transit

Les,lqhikers

 

[kmlacroix]

It's not just the weight. Where the weight is that is important too.

 

[DVexile]

This isn't quite correct. When I ordered my 2013 Chevy 3500 HD, Chevy had a configuration tool on their website. I built the truck I wanted and a payload was shown. The truck was put on the scales after delivery and it was within 100 lbs of what the configuration tool calculated. Don't know if it's still there but it worked great for me.

Thanks for the correction, it would be nice if all the manufacturers provided a tool like a that! Most just seem to offer a few "best case" numbers in their brochures. Of course the sticker on the drivers door sill should tell you the correct number for a given configuration, but then you've got to see the vehicle in person and have the door open.

 

[Stereo]

How much over GVWR are you running and what's the risk to the TRUCK?

I appreciate the input thus far. I get that my stopping distance is reduced and that handling will be iffier. But what might the extra weight be doing to my truck? What components should I be monitoring for extra wear and tear?

With my current rig, I believe I'm running a maximum 400lbs over GVWR (I'm just guessing at our wet weight for longer trips; the truck scale is opposite the direction we have been heading during our past trips). How 'bout you? How much over is your rig when full?

Similar to what lqhikers said, the owners of the Northstar I was considering said they had it on a Tacoma and it worked fine with the air bags and E-rated tires they had added. (I do have these for my camper.) We loved what appeared to be an extended cab-over that provided for a queen bed without having to put the bed together every night and take it apart every morning. It also had under-bed storage which is REALLY nice and windows all around. These options/designs are not possible with the FWC or ATC's. Still, I decided I was uncomfortable with the relative heaviness of the Northstar compared to the FWC and ATCs and decided to pass on it. It was also 5" shorter that a FWC.

I'm also concerned about the torsion mechanism for the roof lift in the Northstar. We have a crank type and it makes putting the roof up a breeze, BUT the torsion bar is under maximum pressure when closed which is the majority of the time. I had to fix my roof when the tension began to pull it apart and I've seen others in various forums who have had to deal with similar repairs. So I'm a bit leery of the long-term stability of those systems. I'll definitely need to have hydraulic lifts in a FWC to aid with roof raising 'cause I'm no spring chicken anymore.

I will continue to keep my eyes out for a used FWC or ATC shell so I can build to suit. I can afford to be patient 'cause I'm sure I've got several more years of use left in my current Skamper with repairs as needed.

 

[Stereo]

I made e recent post over at wander the west site showing my weights,mpg,etc. Les,lqhikers

Here's the link to Les' thread. He reported his extended trip weight was 6350lbs with his Northstar, Tacoma extended cab, 2 adults, gear, and a cat.:Wow1: (I assume he has the rare cat that actually enjoys being in a vehicle.) I believe the GWVR for this truck is 5100. His combined trip mpg of 19.2 is impressive. I've got a 2003 Tacoma extended cab 4x4 V-6 and a lighter camper - and a dog, not a cat. I average a bit over 16 mpg, and I'm a really conservative driver.

 

[RoyJ]

Stereo,

Personally, I like to take the GAWRs approach over a simple "GVW". This is also what DOT does for every commercial vehicle. In fact, in the commercial world, GVW always equal front(s) + rear(s) GAWRs, which is a lot more logical.

In the recreational vehicle market, that's not always the case, for reasons unknown. Even more confusing, every manufacturer have different levels of discrepancy between the sum of F+R GAWRs vs GVWR. Dodge seems more conservative, their sum of GAWRs exceed GVW by 1000 lbs, but in Ford's case, it's closer to 500 lbs. I'd love to sit down with an OEM engineer and ask why, although I already know the answer - his decisions are superseded by marketing and legal...

GAWRs make much more sense from a safety aspect, as it incorporates both suspension AND braking limits. It also allow me to balance my loads equally among the two axles, which allows / implies better vehicle handling. To me, a vehicle that's 500 lbs over GVW, but under both GAWRs, and well balanced (front to rear ratio), is safer than at GVW, but poor balanced.

If anyone disagrees, including the OEM engineers, I'd love to hear some scientific reasoning to back up their claims.

With my Ram 1500 crew cab, I plan on a Hawk. With two people, I'll be very close or slightly over my GVW (6900 lbs). I may be close to my rear GAWR (3900 lbs), but definitely well under front GAWR (3800 lbs). My plan? Shift as much weight forward as I can.

I plan on building a bracket to hold two 6V golf batteries (130 lbs). This bracket goes in FRONT of the front axle, right behind the front bumper. By fulcrum effect, this places around 140 lbs on the front tires, and REMOVE 10 lbs off the rear. It also keeps the CG very low. I plan on removing the rear seats (guessing 70 lbs), and placing my fridge (70 lbs loaded) plus 20 gals water there. This concentrates the load much further forward than physically possible, if I kept everything in the camper. And of course, I'd remove the 60 - 70 lbs tailgate.

I am hoping by doing all this, I won't have to run airbags, and the truck will sit perfectly level. I'll be over GVW by a couple hundred pounds (so are 90% of rigs on here!), but it'll be very well balanced and under both axle (suspension + braking) ratings.

 

[kmlacroix]

These discussions are often amusing, and endless. RoyJ makes points that I agree with, regarding axle weight limits and load balancing. For the record, I do not over load my vehicles. I do believe there is some safety margin factored in by the manufacturers. Lastly, If you choose to overload your vehicle, at least slow down.

 

[Keyne]

One aspect is wear on the truck, extended braking distance, etc. however, what if you are in an accident? If you are over weight wouldn't that factor into the situation with the authorities, insurance etc? Especially if you run into the back of someone or blow a tire, etc. Risk people are willing to take to have a small truck with a camper?

 

[RoyJ]

One aspect is wear on the truck, extended braking distance, etc.

I am trying to think of a single vehicle component that's affected by GVW, but not GAWR, and can't.

Suspension, brakes, control arms, tie rods, etc., are all linearly related to axle weight. Therefore, they shouldn't wear excessively if axle weight limits are obeyed.

Powertrain systems are specified to GCWR, which is much higher than GVWR. In other words, if your transmission can tow 10,000 lbs, you can't hurt it by overloading GVW slightly.

Maybe the frame? But that's a long shot. There are many ways to induce more stress to the frame, without going over GVW. For example, placing a very concentrated load right in between the axles would induce tremendous bending forces on the frame, than being over GVW, but evenly distributed.

however, what if you are in an accident? If you are over weight wouldn't that factor into the situation with the authorities, insurance etc? Especially if you run into the back of someone or blow a tire, etc. Risk people are willing to take to have a small truck with a camper?

While that is true, it's no different than if you're at fault in an accident, and found to be over the speed limit by 2 mph. Your insurance can also be denied, based on the argument you over-drove the designed safe limit of the highway and therefore couldn't brake in time.

But I haven't seen a single real life case where someone is denied insurance due to over-load or speeding, that would render 90% of RV and sports car's insurances invalid!

For the insurance policy to deny you, they have to PROVE overloading was the cause of the accident. And like I explained above, that's difficult to do if I'm not over the GAWR. For instance, many GVW ratings are there for powertrain warranty purposes, and not safety. A Ram 2500 with a 6.4 Hemi can carry 800 lbs more than a 5.7 Hemi, with identical axles (and brakes). Therefore, how can I cause an accident just because I have a smaller engine?

Keep in mind if we go by hard technical specs, just about every mod we do renders the legal GVWRs and GAWRs useless:

• Bigger tires and or wrong wheel offset? Boom, there goes your axle rating, as it could over stress your bearings and brakes.
• Larger diameter tires? GVW, payload, GCWR all invalid due to gear ratio change.
• Lower brake pad friction rating (i.e. OEM is FF and you use ceramic EE pads)? Axle rating is gone.
• Lift kit? Every weight rating out the window.
• Winch bumper? A good lawyer can ding you bad if you hit a person, as it doesn't meet federal pedestrian safety standards!

I am not advocating careless over-loading, not at all.

But due to the nature of our hobby, we have to rely on our own safe judgement. If we "go by the book", then just about thing we do is technically "illegal", short of driving absolutely stock vehicles...

 

[Umtaneum]

Fully loaded, with my kid and I and enough stuff for a long weekend, my 1 ton is about 300# over GVWR, with my pop up! With my old hard-side I was over 1000# above the rating. In both cases I was still under the axle ratings. The pop-up is better distributed, by a long shot. With the pop up, it doesn't even "feel" loaded. I know braking distance is longer, etc., but it's nothing like pulling an equipment trailer or my Dad's big boat, both of which are well within the tow rating. I've never had a Toyota, but if they are anything like Ford, the GVWR rating is some sort of arcane figure with little relationship to the actual day to day performance of the vehicle.

Put another way, at 300# over the GVWR my truck isn't even quite down on the overloads, BEFORE I put any air in the air bags. It's hovering about a quarter inch above. So what the heck are the overloads supposed to be doing back there?