High voltage battery system question

Hey guys,

Starting the build w/ some electrical. I have a 2021 F-150 w/ the onboard 2000W onboard "generator". I like it in concept, and when I'm driving, but I don't like that I have to have the truck running to use it. I have two 72V42ah LiPo batteries on hand that I'm thinking of equipping (I ended up changing a bike design, so these are now sitting around).

I'll start by explaining what I want to do, and how I'm thinking of getting there:
  • I want to use the two LiPo batteries in parallel to be able to charge my bikes (these contain 72v42ah batteries) in the field, as well as other accessories (space heater, a/c, water boiler, etc). I'll use a sine wave converter (found one that converts 60v-90v DC to 110v AC) to convert the DC battery charge to AC for all of these accessories.
  • I currently use a converter 110V AC to 72V (84V) DC to charge the bikes' batteries.
  • I can charge these two batteries off of the onboard 2kw generator, but I don't want it plugged into the AC outlet in the bed all the time, and due to voltage differences, I cannot wire the 72V batteries to the main truck battery as an auxiliary source – plus, I want this system to be – and stay – an independent high voltage system (one day using it as an onshore system for a camper or trailer).

Here are my questions:
  • Is this a major waste of energy converting DC to AC to DC back to AC, and then to DC (for the bike batteries)?
  • Can I bypass the AC outlet in the bed (without triggering any safety features – for those of you who know Ford's system)?
  • What would be a more safe and efficient way to wire this?
  • Is there anyway I can safely go directly off the alternator? Maybe upgrade it to handle the extra strain?
My thought is to not mess w/ the truck in any fashion ( would like to keep that warranty intact) and wire in a volt-meter. When the system get's low, I will then plug it into the AC system on the truck. This isn't a huge deal, but the manual switching is kind of a pain in the ass, especially when I get a camper or trailer.

What would you guys do?

Cheers,
- Dylan
 

john61ct

Adventurer
Wow congrats! Early pioneers get to catch all the arrows :cool:

Just background thoughts, detail questions for you to answer & terminology nitpicks here.

100% agree try to use as is, keep warranty valid of course.

Yes going between AC and DC is "inefficient"

Sticking to the native DC only, and going from high voltage down to lower - buck conversion - is much better

than boosting from low to high.

From grid-style AC power to DC is what is usually called **charging** since battery is usually involved, technically you are rectifying if not.

Converting can in the USA RV world be used for the charging process, but that is confusing usage, best to just use that term conversion, for DC-DC whether buck or boost.

From DC to AC is inverting, using an inverter, usually from stored power to feeding grid-style loads.

Proper high amps gear in any of these categories is usually very expensive if safe and reliable, not an arena for cheap chinese unless you **really** know what you're doing

You need to keep things as simple as possible, so tossing certain (high) voltage batteries into the mix just because you have them already does not make much sense, should not drive your choice of system voltage.

Possibly, the 72V packs could be broken down to serve the usual 12V or 24V or even 48V standards, whichever you choose for basic design reasons

but more likely it would be best to just sell them as is. LiPo is very fire-risky, best to stick with LFP or maybe LTO for House storage needs.

What voltage is the high-power output of the onboard gennie?

I would assume the same as the propulsion pack?

Charging eBikes requires a much higher source voltage than the nominal pack rating, which is usually the 50% SoC halfway point down the discharge curve.

If those 72V packs are 20S (please confirm) then you need 83V input precisely to charge them.

And as I said, buck conversion is much better than boosting.

Also forget charging from storage, i.e. a battery bank, super inefficient, you want the gennie running, charging your House bank, the vehicle pack and your (relatively small) eBike packs at the same time

with buck converters tapping into that high power high voltage DC as their input.

Keep this "genset running for charging" scenario separate, really should be its own ("Topic A") thread once you get into the weeds and later to be broken down at each of the three voltages involved.

_______

Another, completely separate "Topic B" is powering your very high consumption loads

space heater, HWS water heating and aircon

do not call those "accessory" here, confusing see below

Set aside for now, but just realize you would need a very high kWh battery bank costing thousands to power any of those for more than a few minutes a day from storage without the genset running in support at least some of the time.

I'll use a sine wave converter (found one that converts 60v-90v DC to 110v AC) to convert the DC battery charge to AC for all of these accessories.

As discussed, that would be an inverter, and wow, very rare for there to be a DC storage bank at that high a voltage. DC versions of some of those device loads would be more efficient, or even avoiding using electricity.

As I said, set that aside for now.

Mire questions:

What is the power output limit of the truck's built in inverter(s)? Is it designed to run off the (very high voltage) propulsion bank while the motor is turned off?

Does the gennie automagically kick in as those loads draw down SoC% to a certain low point, or does it just cut off feeding the inverter?

Or does the inverter only run off the little accessory 12V battery?

> Is there anyway I can safely go directly off the alternator?

I doubt **if there is** a normal alternator as such, there is no FF motor in there to tap into mechanical energy to produce electricity.

That is what the genset is for, doing that on its own, while the propulsion systems are doing the Opposite.

______

Topic C will be your "normal" power House loads that **can** easily run off stored energy for many hours or even days.

That House bank should ideally be the usual 12V, but 24V or even 48V

higher being better if the very thirsty "B loads" are also fed from that same bank for brief periids in between the genset running them plus recharging at the same time.

_______

As we move forward in discussing these issues in more granular broken down topics, we will quickly get beyond my personal knowledge base and also at some point the pool of members' knowledge here

I would suggest creating separate specific individual threads over at Endless-Sphere.com and the DIY EV forums, maybe keeping those here as a central repository for settled issues and record of specific Ford-EV factoids and recommended devices.

So, def get a good DMM and ammeter for checking on volts & amps

as well as coulomb counting wattmeters for measuring charging and consumption Ah and Wh over time.

And try to get answers to all outstanding questions as we go, to help guide the basic "top level design" aspects if the discussion.

As soon as you see assertions or phrasings you do not fully grok, please ask specific clarifying questions, do not move forward with gaps in your understanding.

Same with statements you see that you would like to challenge, this will be like herding a bunch of cats (apparently a clowder of cats)

and there are often many different ways to skin any given cat
 
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detail questions for you to answer & terminology nitpicks here.

First and foremost, thanks for this! Yes, very helpful. I have a pretty solid understanding on how everything works, but having the right terminology is very important as I dive deeper.

I'll start by clarifying: my primary objective here is to have a battery pack to charge by e-bike (more e-moto) onboard battery – everything else that gets juice is just added benefit. The battery pack on the bike is a 72v42a 20s LiPo (LG cells), 84V fully charged, so yes the charger (converter?) will need to be 84V (I have this already). The batteries I plan to use in parallel are also the same pack size (minus peak discharge being 120A vs 150A).

What I'm really trying to achieve is figuring out the best way to charge the battery bank in the field. Reading through, it seems this best way would be off the 2kw gennie. Here's some answers to your questions:

What is the power output limit of the truck's built in inverter(s)? Is it designed to run off the (very high voltage) propulsion bank while the motor is turned off?

Output limit of this is 2kw. It is designed to run only while the vehicle is on – it's called "generator mode". You get the full 2kw when the truck is in Park and you get closer to 1500w when driving (I suppose it's powering other things). There is a built in cutoff switch and a meter built in to the truck for monitoring.

Or does the inverter only run off the little accessory 12V battery?

My understanding is it converts power from a high-voltage battery (not sure the size for the 2kw option that I have, but the battery bank is 1.5kw for the 2.5kw and 7kw hybrid options).

Another, completely separate "Topic B" is powering your very high consumption loads

space heater, HWS water heating and aircon

do not call those "accessory" here, confusing see below

Set aside for now, but just realize you would need a very high kWh battery bank costing thousands to power any of those for more than a few minutes a day from storage without the genset running in support at least some of the time.

yes, the battery bank will be 6kw nominal, and yes they cost $$$, which is why I need to put them to use. I don't plan to use the banks for this – again, primary use is to charge the bike. This is just a bonus.

Topic C will be your "normal" power House loads that **can** easily run off stored energy for many hours or even days.

That House bank should ideally be the usual 12V, but 24V or even 48V

higher being better if the very thirsty "B loads" are also fed from that same bank for brief periids in between the genset running them plus recharging at the same time.

I will buck these loads in the future using a stepdown inverter. I have a very similar one on my bike build, which powers my lights and instrument panel (and also USB port). The inverters fry, but are safe enough.

-----

My last and final question/thought: Wondering if the bike, which is the same voltage as the pack would be better suited to get "charged" using a simple parallel wiring, instead of using the inverter to charge it. The bank being 72v84ah. The bike being 72v42ah. If the bank was full, and wired up in parallel, the system would equalize, bringing the bike's battery to 28ah – a 2/3 charge. Just a thought... it obviously wouldn't get me to full, but it would eliminate "rectifying" and then "inverting".

Thanks for the help/discussion!
 

john61ct

Adventurer
OK bite sized chunks now, sorry if I repeat

primary objective here is to have a battery pack to charge by e-bike (more e-moto) onboard battery – everything else that gets juice is just added benefit.

Do NOT charge from pack to pack.

With an active source running,

grid power

solar panels

a FF generator

you can charge multiple target banks at the same time, with DCDC converters these can be separate voltages.

So, focus first on that, getting your ebike packs charged from the EV gennie.

Charging a House bank for camping can then come later.
 

john61ct

Adventurer
Output limit of this is 2kw. It is designed to run only while the vehicle is on – it's called "generator mode". You get the full 2kw when the truck is in Park and you get closer to 1500w when driving (I suppose it's powering other things). There is a built in cutoff switch and a meter built in to the truck for monitoring.
OK that is reasonably fast.

So what are the specs if your current charger? (grid style AC to DC no should not be called a converter)


> My understanding is it converts power from a high-voltage battery

the power is primarily coming from the genset if you are pulling anywhere near 2000W

If the propulsion pack gets to Full and the load on the inverter is low, perhaps the big pack does some buffering to give the genset a rest.



> the battery bank will be 6kw nominal

Which bank do you mean?

> I don't plan to use the banks for this

What does "this" refer to?


> I will buck these loads in the future using a stepdown inverter. I have a very similar one on my bike build, which powers my lights and instrument panel (and also USB port). The inverters fry, but are safe enough.

I do not know what that means. No such thing as a stepdown / buck inverter.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
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john61ct

Adventurer
Wondering if the bike, which is the same voltage as the pack would be better suited to get "charged" using a simple parallel wiring, instead of using the inverter to charge it. The bank being 72v84ah. The bike being 72v42ah. If the bank was full, and wired up in parallel, the system would equalize, bringing the bike's battery to 28ah – a 2/3 charge
This is dangerous redneck engineering.

Do not design systems based on finding a use for stuff you have.

Either sell the unneeded packs, or turn them into spare ebike packs.

Swapping out empty for full would work well, then charge them all together from the gennie.

Just plugging in suitable charger(s) to thd AC will be cheapest, most straightforward and safest, 2000W is a pretty decent source.
 

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