Historical destruction or reclaimation?

[bigreen505]

One of the comments in the Martinez Canyon thread got me thinking about my last trip near the Monetzuma/Deer Creek area.

On the second night my sister and I returned to camp to find a rather large group of 15 or so with probably 10 trucks parked on the subalpine tundra (little flowers and plants just below tree line) with a large fire burning. Having walked by there several times the previous day I know for a fact there was no fire circle there, the area was pristine before they came. All this bothered me. They had music cranking and were pretty drunk, but that didn't bother me all that much since they were very nice people, though usually I would be beyond annoyed.

Anyway, we thought we would be nice and say hi to our temporary neighbors. I noticed that the wood they were burning was large planks, 6' long or longer 2"x10" boards. I had to ask where they got the wood thinking perhaps Home Depot. It turns out they come up there several times a year, summer and winter, and pull wood off the old mine buildings. There are several mines in the area. I was horrified by the response, but thought better than trying to reason with 15 drunk people, most either scientists or engineers of one sort or another.

To me this was a glaring example of redneck ecological and historical destruction and the reason mines and ghost towns are disappearing. Not only is it disrespectful to the land, but the history of the state and the legacy of the miners as well.

My sister, however, had a very different take on the situation. Her feelings were that these particular mines, like many that litter the state, have no real historical significance and that ultimately these people using the mine ruins as a private firewood stash are actually helping the mountain heal, reclaim the damage that was done to it (or at least the obvious visual scarring) and return to a pristine state; albeit with a few holes in it.

What is your take? As far as I know it is perfectly legal to bring your own firewood or harvest dead wood from the ground, but I have no idea about pulling apart old buildings.

 

[Brian McVickers]

My initial reaction is that is appalling
Then part of me understands your sister’s reasoning
But I still think it is appalling and wrong.
Who is to say that it is a historic mine or not.
The fact of the matter is that any mine remnants like that are a part of history
And a pleasure to see. It represents what happened in that area and tells a story however insignificant some may think that story is.

 

[Ursidae69]

You know, different people will have different opinions on things like this, but the bottom line is that many of these places, if they occur on public land, are protected by the National Historic Preservation Act or other local/state level laws or regulations.

In my opinion, which means squat, I think many of the older mines need to be cleaned up since many are superfund sites.

 

[flyingwil]

In my opinion, which means squat, I think many of the older mines need to be cleaned up since many are superfund sites.

What is a superfund site?

I think it is completely wrong. If my truck broke down, and I left it to come back later and have all the wheels off, I would be pissed! Just like if I owned the mine, and came back and someone burned all my wood, I would be pissed.

I love seeing the ruins, and such, but to see that things have been stolen off or altered, annoys me. But that is just me. I do understand your sisters point of view, but still do not agree with removing the wood with out permission.

 

[Ursidae69]

What is a superfund site?

I think it is completely wrong. If my truck broke down, and I left it to come back later and have all the wheels off, I would be pissed! Just like if I owned the mine, and came back and someone burned all my wood, I would be pissed.

I love seeing the ruins, and such, but to see that things have been stolen off or altered, annoys me. But that is just me. I do understand your sisters point of view, but still do not agree with removing the wood with out permission.

Superfund sites are hazardous waste areas designated by the EPA. Here is a link.

For the record, I'd not damage an old mine site either, I enjoy the history, but some are pretty dirty due to the mining processes, like leeching the minearals out with different acids.

 

[bigreen505]

Thanks for the replies, the more the merrier. For the record, these are not Superfund size mines, these are little holes in the ground that were mined for a couple years and then people moved on. Some of them have a few houses/buildings remaining, which is where these people are taking the wood. One of my favorites, Grizzly mine on top of Kelso (well, starts at the top and comes out the bottom), has the remains of a sauna.

Although for you Colorado folk reading, it looks like the little mine on Argentine pass road (the one where the parking lot used to be before the road gets rocky, way past the turn off for Argentine) looks like it got Superfunded, which while possibly necessary, is also very sad. Now the parking lot looks like a tailings pile and there is no sign of the mine or surrounding buildings besides one little shack by Peru creek. Sorry, I digress.

I spoke with a landscape photographer who works at one of the local pro labs today and he was pretty outraged. To him, a passionate seeker of pristine beauty, the mines are part of Colorado history and are now a part of the mountain and a part of the landscape.

[EDIT]The mines I'm talking about are like Upper and Lower Radical (i.e. Radical Hill) and others like that.

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

What a great, thought-provoking thread.

My reaction is that, while I'd be all for the dismantling and restoration of certain defunct mining sites, the process should be one of study and thought and debate, not a precipitate need for marshmallow-roasting fuel. That's just vandalism.

 

[datrupr]

Now, this is only my opinion, but personally I lvoe to go and explore old mine sites and ghost towns, and I have to say that it really pisses me off to no end when I see vandalism of these sites. I read your first post, Bill and thought it was very commendable that you chose to do nothing, but I would have wanted to take one of the planks they "scavenged" off of what I would call a historical site and beat them to a bloody pulp with it. Even if I thought that they were nice people in the beginning, after they disclosed that information to me I would have changed my mind to thinking that they have no regard toward history or other people in general. If these buildings are so much in taked that they can steal fire wood for the night off of them then they should be left alone for others to enjoy IMO.

 

[calamaridog]

The way I look at what they did is this: Where were they supposed to camp and park? Where should they have gotten their firewood from? What are the laws and rules for the area they were in?

I'm guessing they were not following the "rules".

It is funny though how vandalism from a few hundred years ago is considered historic

 

[bigreen505]

The way I look at what they did is this: Where were they supposed to camp and park? Where should they have gotten their firewood from? What are the laws and rules for the area they were in?

I'm guessing they were not following the "rules".

It is funny though how vandalism from a few hundred years ago is considered historic

Four established camp sites in the area, three of them are obvious, one is not. The spot they wanted was taken, so they made a new one. Firewood was available and plentiful within about 15-20 steps. We were able to gather enough wood in 15 min. to last us for two days. However, ours was a bit smaller, like a tenth.

 

[calamaridog]

Four established camp sites in the area, three of them are obvious, one is not. The spot they wanted was taken, so they made a new one. Firewood was available and plentiful within about 15-20 steps. We were able to gather enough wood in 15 min. to last us for two days. However, ours was a bit smaller, like a tenth.

So basically they are a$$holes:violent-smiley-031:

Still an interesting topic however due to the various responses.

 

[Ursidae69]

It is funny though how vandalism from a few hundred years ago is considered historic

Great point. I work with archaeologists and often joke with them that the petroglyphs around here are no different than folks nowadays carving their name into a tree or spray painting rocks.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I dunno about at the Federal level, but here in Colorado it is against state law to collect artifacts at places designated historical. Not all mines are designated as such, but there are several historic mining districts, like the areas around Leadville or Lake City. These being National Historic Mining Districts would have Federal penalties involved. In general the stuff left by miners is lumped with the native tribes as being protected from removal and destruction. If you own the mineral or property rights, then the remains are more or less yours to do with what you want. Otherwise, you gotta leave it alone. But even if you own the historical thing, you might not even be able to doing anything with it. The City of Blackhawk wanted to move the Lace House back in the late 1990s and the Colorado Historical Society sued and won to keep them from moving the building from it's location.

Personally, I don't have a problem with mining remains. For the most part abandoned mines aren't going to be around long until nature reclaims them naturally anyway. It's as much a part of the landscape and history of places like Colorado as the mountains themselves. If it weren't for these tough dudes prospecting all over the place, the roads and trails we drive, ride and ski wouldn't be there for the most part.

Great point. I work with archaeologists and often joke with them that the petroglyphs around here are no different than folks nowadays carving their name into a tree or spray painting rocks.

This is a valid point. But I suppose a better analogy might be comparing petroglyphs to modern day newspapers rather than graffiti. In any event I very much hate when people ruin artifacts. Has anyone seen Newspaper Rock lately? It's gotten so bad that it's getting tough to even see the original rock art. That's just sad.

 

[calamaridog]

Great point. I work with archaeologists and often joke with them that the petroglyphs around here are no different than folks nowadays carving their name into a tree or spray painting rocks.

In a sense this is very true but if everyone does it we are in trouble since there are now billions of people:yikes:

I bet they love that arguement

 

[Brian894x4]

As someone who has spent countless hours searching and recording the mining history of this part of the country, I can't imagine anything that would upset me more than to see this history destroyed.

Most mining artifacts are as much as 100 or more years old. They are clearly a part of our American history and should be preserved as much as humanly possible. These people wouldn't think of walking into a museum and pulling the planks off of an old wagon or artifact to burn, yet they think nothing of our history that remains in the wilderness? Its pure ignorance that should not be tolerated in my opinion. And the damage goes beyond destroying historical sites. It's a large reason that we are now facing one new gated off area after another.

The artifacts that remain where they were abandoned in the woods have incredible and significant historical value, sometimes more than any museum piece, because they offer so much more to those studying the history as they remain in their natural state.

I can't tell you how many times I've returned to historical sites only to find things vandalized, stolen or destroyed. I've even found myself reluctant to post what I've found on my website or post maps or give specific directions, because I'm afraid thieves and vandals will find it and destroy it. It's really depressing to think about.

As for the reclamation of mines and superfund sites, I've visited many cleaned up mines and what I've found is that the buildings and artifacts rarely have to be destroyed. Many mines can be closed off for safety, without blowing them shut. Seapage and waste can be collected in newly built ponds to prevent drainage into the local water systems and there are ways to protect our history and the environment without destroying one or the other.

Mines are relatively rare compared to the vast landscape that surrounds them. There is very little environmental gain in completely removing all traces of them, compared to the history that can never ever be recovered once it is lost.

I don't blame you for not confronting 15 drunks. Nor would I despite the insane anger I would have felt had I run into the same situation. I would have probably written down as many license plates as I could have, however, and immediately turned them into the local land owners or Forest Service. Nothing may have happened, but then again, I've heard stories of the Federal Government taking the theft and destruction of historical sites more serious than you might think.

Sometimes in my quest to find and record these historical sites, I feel like I'm in a mad dash race against time, the environmentalists who want to destroy these sites, the weather as it takes it final toll, and even the government or private land owners who destroy sites in attempt to limit liability, and now...of course...the ignorant who simply want firewood or think that a piece of mining history would look cool in their backyard for a few years, until they get bored with it and it decide to toss it in the garbage.

Pretty soon the only thing we're going to have left are pictures. If these idiots get their way, it will be even sooner.