Lance 860 emerges from the weeds

[Mundo4x4Casa]

THE TITLE OF THIS TREAD IS INCORRECT. The rig under scrutiny is the Lance 650. (I was looking at the Lance 865 too, and got confused) Thanks to Lance 990, we are back on track. jefe. Now if i could only learn how to change the title of my thread....
In the world of narrow, not-so-tall, lightweight, off-roadable hard side campers it is hard to find one new for less than $20K. That threshold has just been crossed by a new offering by Lance. http://mellomikeadventures.us/2015/11/the-2016-lance-650-overland-adventure-rig/ http://www.lancecamper.com/truck-campers/ It is now the lowest priced rig in their TC inventory at $19,998.
It's a purpose built compact TC with some fine new features (for Lance) that supposedly is adaptable to the highest GVW 1 series Ford truck. It was unveiled at the SEMA show recently in Las Vegas and was the only TC in attendance. With the comeuppance of H.D. 150's and 1500's into carrying capacity formerly reserved for 250/2500's, the market has changed. Whether these 1 series trucks are truly up to carrying 2700 pounds of loaded camper around, long term, and maybe towing something is debatable. But, all will be revealed, long term with customer reviews.
Lance moved the fridge forward to the edge of the upper sleeping area allowing for a much larger sitting area that converts to a more than 6-1/2 foot long bed. The table is much longer. It has euro style double pane windows, block foam insulation, larger tanks, a sealed wet bath and just plain looks cool. Some may not like the fridge placement, but I think the Lance engineers did a fine job with the placement of bulky appliances and the shrinking and expanding of many other camper features. My old Lance 165-s may not be my last camper. Incredibly, it has exactly the same wet weight as my 165-s of 1842 pounds, and is the same 86" wide, but is 4" taller. Lots of other changes make this a winner for long-term, 4-season travel, and off-road worthy camping for two or three full size people, IMHO.
I have no commercial connection with the Lance company other than I own an old one of similar size without the features.
jefe

 

[IdaSHO]

eh... soapbox time :snorkel:
Please bear with me....



I like the concept, and the fact that SOMEBODY is trying to break the mold with truck campers.

They look to be on the right track.
But the layout just sucks.

'Fridge in the overhead.
Small, I mean TINY door
Zero outside stowage compartments
And where do you put clothing and dry food?
Where are the cupboards??

One of the biggest struggles for long term 4-season travel is the juggle of clothing.
You simply cannot have enough space. And this layout provides just one closet in the overhead?
You need compartments to accommodate clothing for all of those 4 seasons, not just one.
For the cold/wet, you need as minimum a coat/hat rack near the door.v Best is a closet.
Do you really want to drag your cold/wet/filthy jacket and hat into your bed?

And for a long term 4-season camper, that is not a 3-person anything IMO.
3-persons just for overnight, sure. But not long term.

2-adults, no problem. But the width is still tight even for that.


Again, I love the concept.
But the layout just sucks.

 

[oldnslow]

I think it is aimed at the weekend camper types. No need for much clothing for just a weekend.

The fridge in the bed area seems like a bad idea to me, but where else are you going to put it?

There are just so many limitations if you want to put it on a 1/2 ton shortbed truck.

 

[IdaSHO]

That is where I think they went off track.

They dont seem to know what their target buyer is.



IF it is targeting the weekend warrier, then why bother with a complete wet bath??

A wet bath is easily the largest, most common waste of space in todays campers.

Not only does it waste space, but it also requires a LOT more fresh water capacity as well as a water heater.

ALL of which add weight and waster space.



Loose the shower, Build the toilet into a seat, or hide in a drawer, and open up a ton of space for two things:

*Closet by the door
*space for fridge, NOT in the overhead

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

The Lance 650 link surely raised a lot of personal preference statements. That's fine. Over my lifetime of off-roading I have come to the place where thinking outside the box is a good thing. Most of the campers mentioned above are too wide, too heavy, and too long for successful off-roading, IMHO. As has been hinted at, "it's all a tradeoff." If you want to take it along, you must find space for it. We have a little more storage space with the 'wings' in our aging 165-s, but the 650 does have one outside compartment at the rear. The new Lance does have 4 more inches of headroom, which looms large if your are over 6'4" tall. It does have a clothes closet, which ours sadly lacks. As far as the comment about just doing away with the wet bath: not at our age. No way. When I was 22 I didn't need anything but a conveyance for my tarp tent, down sleeping bag, and a jar of peanut butter, and a few cigars. The new lance basically has the same footprint as the 165-s but with much more modern fittings and appliances. Unfortunately, I've just gone through a 'build' with the old Lance to give it one more injection of life before I haul it to the dump. NO ONE would want to own this thing when I'm done with it. It will go kicking and screaming, battered and bruised with nothing left to the TC graveyard.
I installed 200watts of solar (see pic below), made one more attempt to re insulate the entire rig with 1" block closed cell foam, aluminum foil faced, both sides, including 4 windows we don't use (see pic), using Gorilla's new 'sticks to anything' adhesive, inside cabinets, around the propane box, vents. New converter with charge wizard. The old one bit the dust and was unresponsive. New battery. 12, all new LED interior lights. Re-applied weather proofing caulk. New carpeting for winter.
I finally finished the front end. What a nightmare. The Dana 60 front axle for a 1999-2002 Dodge is 32 splines. Virtually no aftermarket limited slip or locker fits a 32 spine axle. I was assured the Dana 60 front axle was a 35 spine when I bought a Tru-Track, gear driven, front torque biasing limited slip. So, I had to have 35 spline, Dana 70 Mosier axles made to delete the front axle disconnect and connect the dots. All new steering components with upgrades. New 35 spline, Dana 70 free wheeling hubs and better bearings, with unit bearing delete. Except for the housing the front axle is now a Dana 70 strength axle. On a trip the photo below was taken, we went down a narrow jeep road and found it was too tight to pass our new Solar array (I love that word. It's such a scam) and had to do a 3 point turn to go back. I back up the side hill out of the cut at a very steep angle with the steering cocked all the way to lock in low range/4WD. This the exact condition that has broken many of my jeep front axles over the years: backing up/steering cocked/low range/steep angle/axles locked. It went without a hitch until I tried to make the last leg of the turn to drop down when the rig stopped cold. Oh-oh. Did I break an axle or twist a driveshaft. No, It was the tip of a submerged granite boulder that parked itself right in front of the pig. A big white road rash was left of the cover. I readjusted and pull back on to the jeep trail. No harm, no foul. So the new front D-70 axle passed the ultimate test.
jefe


Solar charge controller:

Here we are on the Mojave Road before we changed the trailer to a pintel:

 

[grogie]

^Mundo, cool story! That is some axle.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

I put a short vid on the Mojave Road above to show the angle of the trailer before we changed to a pintle. We mulched the ball and cup trailer connector on this trip. This is my 4th Jeep trailer, a 1955 Bradley.
jefe

 

[chicken corners]

Mundo4X4Casa
Not that it matters to you now, but we had a ARB locker in the front of our 32 spline Dana 60. 2001Ram 2500 Ho Cummins. At first we tried a limited slip type locker in the front, until we realized it was 32 spline. I think ARB was the only one that made anything for 32 spline? Nice set up you have.

 

[brianjwilson]

That is where I think they went off track.

They dont seem to know what their target buyer is.



IF it is targeting the weekend warrier, then why bother with a complete wet bath??

A wet bath is easily the largest, most common waste of space in todays campers.

Not only does it waste space, but it also requires a LOT more fresh water capacity as well as a water heater.

ALL of which add weight and waster space.



Loose the shower, Build the toilet into a seat, or hide in a drawer, and open up a ton of space for two things:

*Closet by the door
*space for fridge, NOT in the overhead

Wow. By reading both of your posts, you would think lance is trying to force this camper down your throat.

Not everyone has the same needs or desires. I agree with the comment about someone offering a "different" style camper than everyone else. Although technically the floor plan is almost identical to what six pak used to sell, right down to the fridge in the cabover. I like it. Put the fridge overhead I don't care, the COG is even further forward. Hell I can make a whiskey and coke in bed!

My wife, daughter (15 months old at the time) and I spent nine days in our Tacoma and Four wheel camper. From 20F to 95F. Cold weather gear and swim gear. Diapers and toys. Not everyone needs exterior storage and huge closets. I don't need huge selections of jackets on a trip. But a lot of people want a little more space, relatively light weight, and women LOVE a separate "bathroom". For a lot of people it's a deal breaker. Stupid or not, if it's the difference in getting your wife out or not, you do it. You can easily stow gear in the wet bath and move it if needed. I believe they should have installed a real cabinet over the couch. I don't see us switching to a hard sided camper any time soon, but this layout would be near perfect for us, especially with another kid coming. Very comfortable for long weekends and easily doable for multi week trips. Even with two kids. LONG term as in all year full timing? Of course not, but that is such a small part of the market and clearly not the target.

We had a 7' hard side years ago. No bathroom, but it did have a bigger closet in back and overhead storage on both sides. And guess what? We just filled most of the compartments with **** we never used or needed. For two of us, the whole setup was just overkill and too big. After using my FWC this summer I emptied everything out and was amazed even at how much crap I packed in there. I removed a bunch of stuff and prioritized my storage based on what I used most frequently.

Either way I like it. And it costs less than my FWC. And I like that they're offering something different than most others.

 

[IdaSHO]

Not at all.

But being somebody that has actually designed, engineered, and build my own lightweight 4-season camper I know what trade-offs and considerations must be made.


And do me a favor... read the article linked in the first post, and you tell me what the target buyer is.
Again, that's where their primary issues started.

They seem to be going the right direction, but their target buyer doesn't seem to be in focus.


If you REALLY want to break the mold on a lightweight pickup camper, you need to know your target buyer.

Weight is always the enemy. More so for a "1/2 ton" camper than anywhere else
And WEIGHT in the terms of OPTIONS and the way they play out in the entirety of the camper is primarily driven by the needs of the target buyer.

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Chicken,
I did not know that anyone, let alone ARB had a 32 spline locker. I've jeeped for decades with ARB's front and rear and find them purpose built for rocks and off-camber crawling. I just sold my '82 CJ8 (well, in name only. The tub and parts of the frame were not touched) but wanted traction for the truck camper that would work in deep snow and slippery ice, like we are finally getting around these parts again (West Slope, Northern Sierra Nevada). This is digging out on our driveway in late Feb/2010, getting ready for a trip: Yes, that's me with the roof rake trying to drop a K pounds of Sierra Cement.

I"ve had almost every locker at one time or another except the OX locker and stock Jeep (Japanese) locker for TJ's. Both the True Trac and the Power Lok get high marks for snow bunnies. Jeanie and I do most of our TC-ing NOT in the summer. Fall/Winter/early Spring are fine.
The Hard-side Truck Camper forum on here seems to have very few followers that are actually in the hard-core, XTC camp. That's fine. I just wanted folks to know that there was a new option (The Lance 650) on the launchpad.
jefe

 

[Lance990]

I am totally confused by this post. The subject refers to a Lance 860 but the article and discussion seem to be around the Lance 650. I don't recall a Lance 860 ever being produced by Lance. What am I missing here?

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Lance 990,
You are right to be confused. The rig in question is, indeed, a Lance 650, NOT an 860. Mea Culpa. I'm so far out of the loop with the model numbers now, my 17 yr. old Lance Lite 165-s is Terra Incognita to most people.

 

[Lance990]

Good. Then I'm not as stupid as I thought! BTW, I'm a big fan of yours and your XTC adventures. I have read many of your trip reports and I would love to have a rig that was as capable as yours.

As for the 650, I really like it as well. The size seems perfect for off-roading (if you have the right vehicle). I love my 990 and I've been a lot of places with it but it's just not the best camper for XTCing. Maybe someday I will downsize a bit and get a 4x4 as well. I like my 8 foot truck bed but the new 650 has me thinking about how far I could go with a short bed 4x4.

Hugh

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

Hugh,
I'm glad you are on here. I notice that your TC was built the same year mine was, so I can't use the age excuse. In my off-road travels I've found that it's good to be narrower and not so tall. The Lance 650, 165-s, 825, and 865 (I hope i have those numbers right) all have essentially the same footprint. In my on-road travels, I surmise that your TC would be a much better choice. We are supposed to get 18" of snow tomorrow, Christmas Eve here on the West Slope, Northern Sierra Nevada and I'll be able to tryout the new snow/ice traction aids to see if they are up to snuff. Trying to dig out the TC in March/2010:

jefe