Lite weight campers & RVs. Consumers/customers need to push manufacturers....

[Freebird]

We ALL know that the weight we haul around seriously impacts efficiency/MPG.
Weight hauled is a vicious circle. More weight means heavier duty EVERYTHING (truck wise), which weighs more, so on and so on, ad infinitim.....
Yet a lot of the high end manufactures are putting in granite countertops, etc, etc.
I think most of us here are aware of the NEED for light weight everything....that is semi-practical, anyway.
If our little corner of the RV market can push (encourage) the TC builders to trim weight where possible, maybe it can influence the greater RV market....? Then lighter material will be developed to replace the traditional materials. Gota start somewhere.
Kudos to Ford for the push into lighter weight pickups. Maybe this impetus will provide a demand/market for truly LITE truck campers that will not overtax this popular 1/2 ton offering. One can hope, anyway.

Anyhow, at the various RV shows, rallies, sales lots, and FORUMS, if we all talk up LITE WEIGHT products, and show it MATTERS to us as buyers/consumers, it might ultimately matter and be a positive factor.....?

I know the price of fuel is currently down, but it likely will rebound as it always has in the past. Beyond that, RANGE matters, and a fuel tank with more miles in it to explore areas without much fuel availability is a mighty good thing.

This is not a rant, just frustrated with the continued emphasis on LUXURY (consumer driven) instead of very light weight campers/products.
Thoughts?

 

[calicamper]

Lots of good light options today. Issue being its a small part of the market. Not to mention its probably like the sailboat buisness. Takes the same labor to make a 20k boat or camper as it does to make a 200k camper or boat. The people selling them make more selling the 200k 40footer vs the 20k 20 footer.

 

[Huffy]

What happened to Fords partnership with Livin Lite Campers for the new F-150? They were supposed to come out in early 2015. Did it end with Thors purchase of the Livin Lite camper line?

 

[calicamper]

You can buy a livin light camper. Stick a ford sticker on it. LOL

 

[Huffy]

Can I buy a Ford and put a Livin Lite sticker on it?

 

[tgreening]

Define high end.

Most standard RVs are all about light weight, which almost invariably means cheap crap. They use the lightest junk they can get away with so they can sell a 40'+ fifth wheel to Billy Bob who figures he can pull it with his short bed F250 juuuust fine.

That's no joke. They all look nice on the surface but under the skin they're crap.

 

[Jeep]

Freebird, you've commented on my build thread, and I'm interested to see the responses in this thread. I am building my own composite camper on a flatbed platform, both designed to work with each other and the selected chassis. I almost just built a camper to slide into the back of my truck but really wanted to take advantage of the additional space with the flat bed design. Especially considering it is all designed to work with the single wheel chassis and only be 7' wide. I felt the 7' width would be beneficial in reduced weight, less wind resistance, manoeuvrability, drivability, and superior visibility. So the extra space afforded by the flat bed design becomes even more valuable. But I did strongly consider a slide in camper.

I agree with the consensus that most light weight truck campers are junk. The only quality wood framed units I have seen are custom builds, a couple guys on here with some real substantial builds, but as far as mass production, there is a reason most people that buy a well used camper end up doing a lot of work to restore it back to functional. As for some of the current aluminum offerings, well…..I build some really nice aluminum stuff and I don't have much good to say about what I see on the market. Poor welding, no welding, (tek screw and bent sheet metal angle bracket to connect stud to sill in .063 material….really?), crap fasteners, cheap cabinetry, etc.

What are you looking for in a light weight camper? What features would you want on the inside? I mean you could build a fair priced unit with a basic heater, small water tank, hand pump, 2 burner stove, ice box, decent windows, and an 8 footer could come in around 1000 pounds with some amenities. Or are you thinking more loaded up? That stuff adds weight! But creature comforts are nice! And regardless if you had a nice high quality composite shell, you could adjust it according to your changing needs, and it would last a lifetime. What kind of price point matters? Where is the breaking point between quality that isn't on the market and something that will last a lifetime. Is resale value a factor?

 

[back woods]

"Lite weight" is all you hear about in the market these days. Livin lite is close but they are lacking the interior finish that many other companies provide.

 

[IdaSHO]

Sadly, you must build your own if you want lightweight, quality, and (just) the features you want.


That's one of the biggest reasons I built my own. There simply wasnt/isnt a commercially available make/model that filled the needs.


In our travels we have people asking about the camper nearly every stop due to it being so unique. My wife tells me I should quit my job and start building campers....

I dont really want to :snorkel:

 

[Freebird]

Jeep,
Here is a thread at WTW I started about campers that are not being produced, therefore a "hole in the market"....

http://www.wanderthewest.com/forum/...fordable-pop-top-availability-market-opinion/

I know custom build is available, but..... I think I'm not the only one seeing this product "gap"...

I have been watching the various home builds, custom builds, and some of the commercial (production) builds. There is a lot of high end/quality looking work on these forums, but there is a lack of "follow up" on a most of them, to see how they hold up over time & use.

Mass production, or at least assembly line efficiencies, would make great quality possible at an affordable price. I've got some structurural & production ideas for a light weight/high strength composite build that I tried to offer (gratis) to a fiberglass pop up manufacturer.... He was NOT interested in any outside/NIH ideas. Oh, well....

I do love to see good QUALITY, long lasting, functional builds....whatever the source.

 

[gmacmt]

Great idea, but this thread is missing two key points...

What is the price point you are thinking of? And what is the desired level of quality?

High quality, large production, fiberglass construction, light weight are all good descriptors, they are not design parameters. If you want an XP style camper shell that weighs 1000# and comes in at 15k, I dont think that anyone could make money doing that. But if you are talking 25-30ish, that would be in the ballpark for a well insulated, properly made lightweight shell. I think there is a lot of demand for a light weight, cost effective, hard side camper, but probably not enough demand to make large scale production of it... Especially considering once you have the tooling, factory, employees, etc, what happens you put out a camper that lasts a lifetime to a small group of savvy well informed consumers that are really good at reselling your product on the used market?

What about something like Callen Camper?

And jeep hit the nail on the head. Things get heavy, quickly. It would be awesome to be able to get a four door tacoma with a six foot bed, but the 1300 pound payload strikes that idea down pretty quickly unless you want to go way over weight. If you have 40 gallons of water, 10 gallons of fuel, 2 kids, 2 adults, big tires, front and rear bumpers, you are already over GVWR. Thats without the camper.

IMO 3/4 or 1 ton diesel (gas would work too, but worse mpg) truck really does make a lot of sense versus a half ton. It gets virtually the same fuel economy as a loaded half ton, it is made to carry huge amounts of weight SAFELY, and modern diesel is dead reliable. It seems to me that once you get into the game of carrying a big camper, you need a big truck. Even if the camper is light, your gear and interior appointments wont be, unless you take a very spartan approach.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

 

[JHa6av8r]

Great idea, but this thread is missing two key points...

What is the price point you are thinking of? And what is the desired level of quality?

High quality, large production, fiberglass construction, light weight are all good descriptors, they are not design parameters. If you want an XP style camper shell that weighs 1000# and comes in at 15k, I dont think that anyone could make money doing that. But if you are talking 25-30ish, that would be in the ballpark for a well insulated, properly made lightweight shell. I think there is a lot of demand for a light weight, cost effective, hard side camper, but probably not enough demand to make large scale production of it... Especially considering once you have the tooling, factory, employees, etc, what happens you put out a camper that lasts a lifetime to a small group of savvy well informed consumers that are really good at reselling your product on the used market?

What about something like Callen Camper?

And jeep hit the nail on the head. Things get heavy, quickly. It would be awesome to be able to get a four door tacoma with a six foot bed, but the 1300 pound payload strikes that idea down pretty quickly unless you want to go way over weight. If you have 40 gallons of water, 10 gallons of fuel, 2 kids, 2 adults, big tires, front and rear bumpers, you are already over GVWR. Thats without the camper.

IMO 3/4 or 1 ton diesel (gas would work too, but worse mpg) truck really does make a lot of sense versus a half ton. It gets virtually the same fuel economy as a loaded half ton, it is made to carry huge amounts of weight SAFELY, and modern diesel is dead reliable. It seems to me that once you get into the game of carrying a big camper, you need a big truck. Even if the camper is light, your gear and interior appointments wont be, unless you take a very spartan approach.

Curious to hear your thoughts.

I was going to make a comment at what cost also. There are some very good light weight shells available. Quality light weight interiors is another matter. Light and strong is costly, think aviation. There needs to be a business reason to build anything for even small production quantities.

I'm of the bigger truck lighter payload mindset because of safety and equipment wear and tear.

 

[calicamper]

I've played with composite toys alot over the years. One thing I will tell you RV builders and power boat builders do not build light weight strong fiberglass products. The super small nich builders do but they are rare and come with a hefty price all tied to labor. Typical mass produced glass rvs and power boats are simply chopped glass mat fed through a spray gun with cheap resin. They spray the whole thing in a mold and bam they are done. This is heavy old school cheap glass manufacuring. Then you you have builders with high end racing sailboat building experience who also often have composit aircraft building background. They use a resin infusion build process with glass fiber mats laid out in a design for strength, using hightech foam core or the solid Balsa standby to buld exceptionally light and very strong structures.

I only know of one camper builder building glass campers using modern composit building techniques. His product is hands down one of the best built glass RV products made today regarding strength vs weight ratio. It will also cost you given it takes man hours to build that way.

Composit construction is awesome stuff todays engineering of composits is absolutley amazing. But it takes a very skilled builder and time to do it right. An $80,000 truck camper with no competition is what you get when you build with composites using modern building practices.

A high end composit racing sailboat will have a very similar weight to strength ratio to a high end aluminum racing boat built to compete in the same class. The difference being the materials and how they can be repaired, modified and maintained etc. Each material has its plusses and negatives.

 

[Huffy]

I've built several boats in composite and aluminum to achieve light weight and high performance. It is possible to reduce weight slightly from the mass produced products but, when you add in the fixed weights, that you cannot reduce, the gains are modest. I am now seeking a lightweight truck camper option and finding the same thing. It is possible to save a few hundred pounds with a home brew but, the weight of refers, AC, fans, tanks, pumps, hoses and other items makes meaningful gains tough. When the weight of water, batteries, LP tanks and other items add up, the few hundred pounds saved in the shell becomes a small consolation. At his point I am hard pressed for a good solution. The most likely option for me is a heavy duty truck with a Northern Lites or Livin Lite camper in the 2000# range. I am anxious to hear anyones alternative solutions which avoid the HD diesel truck.

 

[Victorian]

Interesting conversation. There are many great custom builders in North America. Most of us will find them expensive, but only because we are used to cheap products and buy it 5 times.
I have met many people over the years that started out with used older campers/ rv's. Then they bought another one... After the 3 or 4th they noticed that they are not getting anywhere and ending up buying the same crap over and over. That is when they started looking into something custom. I know of people that traveled for 18 years in the same camper around the world.
As mentioned above, paying $50.000 for an empty box is a bit steep but not uncommon for european builders. We can set you up with everything you need to build your own for much much less!