Man Kat Import and use in the USA

K

Kiomon

Adventurer
Hi All,

We are starting to explore the next build and we have focused in on Man Kat 6x6 and 8x8 as the potential chassis. I am struggling to find good solid information regarding importation and use in the USA. So I would appreciate some help/ advice.

1. Can these trucks be legally imported into the USA given they are older than 25 years old?
From what I can find, they are clear and free to import to the US because they are old enough. But I also see reference to them also being exempted due to work that Man has done themselves? Both cases point to being importable, but I want to sure. Any advice or explanation here?

2. Access to parts
I have identified some service and parts resources in Europe, is there ANY presence from MAN in the USA? Canada seems better. Anyone have experience with MAN in the USA? With our Unimog there are a couple of options in the USA, and outside of the USA it gets even better.

3. Existing Owners in the US
Does anyone know a buddy or themselves own one of these trucks? I just want to learn from other owners and build blogs seem few and far between. So just looking for resources and first hand experience.

4. Deutz Air Cooled Diesel
The Man Kats are powered by air cooled v8 Deutz engines. I have reached out to Deutz Americas to see what information they can provide and information on parts and support from them, but anyone have any knowledge on the reliability of these air cooled engines? in the cold? in the heat?

This forward has always been an inspiration and source of random knowledge. Hoping I can get some help!
 
egn

egn

Adventurer
Hi

Kiomon said:
2. Access to parts
Click to expand...

All Parts are available in Germany at MAN dealers, but of course they will probably not send the parts to US. But there are some KAT specialists, like Marcel Kley http://www.kley-mobile-werkstatt.de/ that may provide parts to you. He helps KAT travelers with advice and parts all over the world. Another alternative may be Franz Aigner http://www.aignertrucks.com/en/ . He may also help with import to US. For some parts there is also a used market, as some people dismantled some vehicles and sell in parts. There are also some alternative parts available.

4. Deutz Air Cooled Diesel
The Man Kats are powered by air cooled v8 Deutz engines. I have reached out to Deutz Americas to see what information they can provide and information on parts and support from them, but anyone have any knowledge on the reliability of these air cooled engines? in the cold? in the heat?
Click to expand...

The engines are very reliable overall. They are still build and used all over the world.

To your other questions through PM:
We would still buy a MAN KAT 1, because it is a very capable and reliable platform. We use it now about 10 year and more than 40000 miles it never let us down.

Of course, with a vehicle that is more than 37 years old there are parts that a wearing out. The most expensive repair was about 5000 USD with the torque converter, that lost oil because a hard seal wore out a shaft. As a repair would have taken to much time we installed a replacement. Other parts that have to be replaced where clutch and some shocks. But with a buying price of about 25.000 Euro the vehicle was comparably cheap. So this all was acceptable for us.

It is very important that you get a vehicle in good condition and people like Marcel may help you here. He knows every screw of the MAN KAT.

The drives cab isn't that spacious as the cab of a modern truck, but for 3 people traveling it is ok. I have a similar size like you and I have no problem. I have replaced the standard seats with new air suspended seats with low profile.

This forward has always been an inspiration and source of random knowledge. Hoping I can get some help!
Click to expand...

If you want more detailed information you should join http://www.kat-forum.de . All members are happy to answer your questions.

Cheers,
Emil
 
Haf-E

Haf-E

Expedition Leader
I am pretty sure that Scott at Expedition-Imports in California has brought a few of these in. There is one in CA that is setup and a large camper and was at the Mogfest get together a couple of years ago (the one in Southern California - not the NW Mogfest in Oregon).

I've also heard the US military had a few - but no real details on that.
 
U

unirover

Observer
Importing a 8x8 MAN KAT1 is not a simple endeavor. It is 25 years old so in that regard it is not a big deal - you are pretty much set with the EPA/DOT part.

A lot of people think importing a vehicle is the price of vehicle in Europe + Ro/Ro shipping cost. Maybe for run of the mill old european cars but usually not for Unimogs and definitely not for MAN. There are a lot of of other issues that can make this a huge and expensive headache.

First of all is the logistics of moving it. You have to get it from where you buy it to the port. It involves being hauled by a “convoy exceptional” (european for oversize) permit. These are a lot more expensive then your average car transport. Then you need a european weapons permit if it is in camo. Even if it is not camo, it is up to the discretion of the customs officer if it needs a permit so that will be hanging over your head. A permit takes a few weeks to a few months to get. Meanwhile you will be paying for storage and parking. Think hundreds if not thousands of dollars depending on port and time. A lot of Ro/Ro companies do not transport anything that looks military. Again it is their call and they may or may not load it, regardless of how it is painted. Painting non-camo will certainly help but is not a guarantee, so you either have to cut your risks and go through the weapons export process or risk it. USA does not classify it as a weapon so you do not need the permit on this end, just on the export side. However, once it is classified in Europe as a weapon, it has to come into the USA as a weapon and will need to be signed off by USA customs. Lots of potential for snafus.

Next comes USA customs. You can legally import it however I don't think they are going to just let it in, especially if it is coming in on a weapons permit. It is crucial to have a good customs broker. If you just pick one out of the phone book you might get royally screwed. I've seen brokers make huge mistakes and if they are not tuned into importing vehicles and weapons your in trouble. Even with a good broker, customs will probably hit you up with a 25% duty and that includes the cost of shipping. Then they will probably do several examinations on it, which can be pretty quick or take weeks. The examinations cost around $150 to $500 a pop. Parking after a week is not free and costs depend on ports but you are probably looking at at least $50 a day, tractor trailers cost $150 a day. I've had vehicles held for more than a month, needing all kinds of exams from department of ag, to homeland security, to DOT. A seriously doubt customs will just wave a 8x8 through without at least a few inspections.

Then you have to get it out of the port. You can't just throw some temp car plates on it. Again you are looking at pretty big bucks and depending on how far you are from the port, it might actually cost more than the Ro/Ro.

Then you have to try to register it with your state. Some are easy some are impossible.

Anyway, to a degree this all applies to Unimogs but the risk of increased costs gets seriously amplified when you try to bring in something like an 8x8 MAN. It is certainly doable and in the end you will definitely get it in because you are entitled to do so. However, how much it will ultimately cost is not easy to predict. I'd guess if you are lucky you could do it for 10k. Most likely it will cost more like 15k, and if you are unlucky you could be looking at a lot more. I seriously doubt you will get a MAN 6x6 or 8x8 at your doorstep for less than 40K. I'd budget 50K just in case things go pear shaped.

That's a long winded answer to question 1.

Parts are certainly available but they are much harder to get then Unimog parts. Since they were actually used by the USA army, parts sometimes come up for auction here and because nobody owns them, the parts are pretty cheap.

I don't know of anybody who owns one in the States although again, the 8x8 were used by the US so maybe a few fell into private hands. I suspect if you look hard enough, you will find that there are a few about.

The Deutz motor is a good engine, very reliable and the 6x6 and 8x8 have a higher horsepower version. Parts a not too hard to find but I doubt Deutz USA will be able to help you. The biggest weakness to the MAN is the gearbox ECU which are known to fail and the vehicle is undrivable without one. They are not cheap to replace. Emil can probably enlighten you on that.

If you are still seriously interested in one, PM me. I might be able to help you out. Otherwise let us know what you have learned and if you decide to get one, how the process goes. I am sure a lot of people would be interested.
 
egn

egn

Adventurer
unirover said:
The biggest weakness to the MAN is the gearbox ECU which are known to fail and the vehicle is undrivable without one. They are not cheap to replace. Emil can probably enlighten you on that.
Click to expand...

That the ECU ic known to fail is new to me. I know certainly more than 50 % of all private KAT users here in Germany and have never ever heard that one has failed. Last time I saw one sold the price was about 300 €. As a lot of KAT in bad shape are getting dismantled, spare ECU should be available.

Anyway, there is also an alternative implementation of the ECU available from a guy here in Germany. (sorry german language)

PDF


His implementation with an industrial control system is much better than the original, especially regarding protection of the expensive torque converter. Additionally there are a lot of comfort features available, like different programs for off-road and highway driving. He even has a prototype with cruise control functionality. It is used in rally competitions and by other drivers. I had one for test and it is plug and play. The KAT is driving better with it. I didn't buy it yet, because I see no real need for me.

So I really see no problem here.

Regarding your other points regarding hassle and associated costs, some may be a problem others not depending on where you buy the MAN.

I.e. if you buy it from Franz Aigner he will certainly organize everything and will keep costs low. He has exported a lot of vehicles, especially to Africa. A friend of mine has bought about a dozen of MAN KAT and exported them to Namibia. I didn't hear about any problems and high costs.

So, I would recommend to buy from a reputable dealer who as experience with export of such vehicles.
 
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nick disjunkt

Adventurer
unirover said:
I
First of all is the logistics of moving it. You have to get it from where you buy it to the port. It involves being hauled by a “convoy exceptional” (european for oversize) permit. These are a lot more expensive then your average car transport.
Click to expand...

My understanding of importing a vehicle into America is limited as when I shipped my truck out and back it was very simple under a temporary import, but the above isn't correct. It would be easiest to drive the vehicle to the port, and at any rate most roro lines wont ship vehicles that don't move under their own power. But presuming you want to trailer it for some reason, even the 8x8 is not heavy or large enough to require a Convoi Exceptionnel. It might be high enough to warrant the use of a low-loader trailer, which will add to the cost, but the width is within limits, and the weight of a typical low loader with an 8x8 on the back would be well under the STGO (or European equivalent) requirements
 
egn

egn

Adventurer
The regular way to transport an 8x8 on a trailer looks like this:

D3S_8315-900.jpg


Source

BTW, some members of the KAT community own similar trailers and may help with the transport. :ylsmoke:
 
U

unirover

Observer
I am by no means an expert on MAN but I have exported/imported a lot of vehicles, especially odd ball vehicles. My point is you can import a MAN KAT1 into the USA but it won't be cheap and there are a lot of potential snafus that could greatly add to costs.

I'm sure Franz, and several other dealers, will help with export paperwork. The prices listed on the internet do not include transport to the port, and while I am sure they can arrange everything, it ain't free. However, they can not help you import it into the USA. Once it's on the ship, you are on your own. I've used brokers in the USA that European dealers recommended, all I can say is I was not impressed. They usually just ask their shipper, who looks up an affiliate in the USA. Also, if things go off script, USA customs makes Africa seem like a cake walk. Often things go pretty well and are straightforward but it is not uncommon for there to be a big mix up or misinterpretation and that can get expensive fast. As I said, importing a MAN just increases that risk since chances are nobody has seen one before, don't know to classify it and don't know what other jurisdictions it may, or may not, fall under. No seller in Europe can help you with that. It's just good to know before you start so you have an idea of what you are up against.

In regards to the ECU, I've heard that from several army guys at various depots. I asked them what the biggest weak spot was, and the ECU's, combined with damaged torque converters/clutches (more driver error than a design flaw) were the biggest issues. I've also heard this from several people with a lot of experience with KAT1 but I am by no means an expert. They told me the ECU was a problem and that they were known to fail. At the time (this was a few years back) I was told the were expensive -like 2,000 Euro - so I'm glad to hear they don't cost that much anymore. It's also nice to know there is an alternative.
 
U

unirover

Observer
nick disjunkt said:
My understanding of importing a vehicle into America is limited as when I shipped my truck out and back it was very simple under a temporary import, but the above isn't correct. It would be easiest to drive the vehicle to the port, and at any rate most roro lines wont ship vehicles that don't move under their own power. But presuming you want to trailer it for some reason, even the 8x8 is not heavy or large enough to require a Convoi Exceptionnel. It might be high enough to warrant the use of a low-loader trailer, which will add to the cost, but the width is within limits, and the weight of a typical low loader with an 8x8 on the back would be well under the STGO (or European equivalent) requirements
Click to expand...

It would be easier to drive. However, the vehicles in the mid 20 Euro range do not come with a valid German registration, TuV, tolls and taxes. That is extra, and not cheap with a MAN. Then you have to insure it. Not easy for a non EU resident. Then you have to have a HGV license. I'm sure some dealers would drive it to the port with temporary plates but usually they prefer to truck it, which is usually cheaper for non EU, non HGV customers. Again not impossible to drive it but the devil is in the details.

I just have phrased the convoy exceptional differently. You are right, I don't think you need that. However you definitely need a low loader and they are more expensive and a bit trickier to arrange which was more my point. It just happens that most of the time I use the low loaders they have the "convoy exceptional" placards because that is what they are often used for.
 
D

DzlToy

Explorer
Buy one that is already here if you really want that truck:

The US Army and the US Air Force operated four variations of the MAN KAT1 model under the designations M1001, M1002, M1013 and M1014.
 
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