Olympian Camco Wave 6 and the propane alarm help!

[jaydon44]

So i bought one of these things about 6 years ago when i started building my camper so that i could have it handy to design the trailer

I rigged it up and confirmed no leaks before this winter and upon a couple times using and testing it recently the LPP alarm on my safe-t-alert would sound every time after about 3-5 minutes of use...vented with window and roof vent

I had it installed over the summer not using it, i did NOT HAVE IT COVERED or protected from dust, other then assuming i had built an air tight camper i assumed it would be fine until i got around to fabricating some type of cover

Before i had it installed it was stored in the box inside the plastic bag except for the hand full of times i took it out to take measurements

I understand that these platinum mesh elements are very sensitive to dust/damage rendering them less efficient if exposed or damaged.....but already!?!?!

I live in Canada and bought this heater from the US because we can’t get them up here and I “assumed” when the heating element wore out or “clogged up” i could just order a new one and replace it, but the manufacturer won’t allow that for safety concerns regarding randos screwing with their propane products so now my only option is to drive down to the boarder and send this thing back to the manufacture for “repair” and wait for it to get sent back and pay a standard screen replacement/SH/labour fee of 159$ US

Ive been in contact with their info@camco guy and he has been awesome

I’m lucky enough to work for a fire dept and was able to borrow and use a gas sniffer; vented or unvented the LPP never went above 7ppm but it was ALWAYS detected when the heater was on

Unvented of course the oxygen went down to like 19 percent after a 5-10 minutes

And unvented the CO went up to ranges of 1-3ppm after 5-10 minutes which is fair to camco’s claim of “99% efficient burning heater”

These times are all after i warmed up the heater as per instructions with a large vent and on full “high” mode for 10 minutes to effectively warm up the platinum mesh

And the alarm only goes off when the heater is turned on and running so that tells me that there for sure no supply leak unless by chance there is some freak problem with the thermocoupler valve which I wouldn’t have a clue how to diagnose

If any propane pro’s or people experienced with damaged camco wave elements in the past or ANYONE who’s knows more then me can chyme in i’d be very thankful

Can’t seem to find anyone with similar experiences on the net or forums....only reviews of how freaking awesome the heaters are....hence why I bought one

Thanks!

 

[NatersXJ6]

Gas concentrations are always taken at a distance. Farther away means more diffusion and less concentration. Your vents may also not effectively vent all of the camper depending on configuration. Can you supply any information about where the alarm is mounted in relation to the heater, and where you are testing in relation to both the alarm and the heater?

In addition, once you stop the heater, how long for gas and oxygen to return to normal?

And, is your gas meter calibrated for propane? Most of the gas sniffers I’ve worked with in industry are designed to output % LEL (lower explosive limit) ... if you are able to measure 7 PPMV you must have a really sensitive meter. If you are actually at 7% LEL, you have a problem.

 

[TernOverland]

Sounds to me like a measurement problem, rather than a heater problem. Is your safe-T-alert very near the heater? The alarm could just be a delayed reaction to unburned gasses during start-up. The chemical in propane that makes it stink has an odor threshold of about 1PPB (parts per Billion). If there were a problem, you would smell it. The alarms are there to alert you when you are asleep. I would be suspicious of the alarm. All of these alarms have a limited lifespan. I also would not trust measurements in the 1-10 PPM range from your sniffer, unless a calibrated gas is used to set the meter. None the less, low concentrations like you saw of CO and hydrocarbons are normal with a catalytic heater.

Regarding the pad in the heater, I have abused those things in every way imaginable and never had one fail. If you look at the pad in the dark while it is burning, you should just see the glow. If you also see a flame somewhere, that could be a problem.

One more bit. I always mount my cats in a ventilated box. Even though the CO given off by these heaters is low, there is no medical data that defines the effects of long term low level exposure.

I've used and researched these heaters extensively over the last 20 years. Here is a paper that I found to be a good reference: https://cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/CO02_0.pdf

 

[jaydon44]

Gas concentrations are always taken at a distance. Farther away means more diffusion and less concentration. Your vents may also not effectively vent all of the camper depending on configuration. Can you supply any information about where the alarm is mounted in relation to the heater, and where you are testing in relation to both the alarm and the heater?

In addition, once you stop the heater, how long for gas and oxygen to return to normal?

And, is your gas meter calibrated for propane? Most of the gas sniffers I’ve worked with in industry are designed to output % LEL (lower explosive limit) ... if you are able to measure 7 PPMV you must have a really sensitive meter. If you are actually at 7% LEL, you have a problem.

Thanks for reply,

Ya the sniffer I used is an MX6, and yes it was LEL I was measuring , my trailer is a small teardrop style with the heater in the front and center facing the rear and the safe-t-alert is on a control panel door adjacent to the heater...on the front wall facing the back, it is only about 1.5ft away from the heater, i tried using the sniffer in various locations, and got readings between 3-7 LEL 7 was obviously closer and 3 was as far away at the back of the trailer as possible, after killing the heater when the alarm was sounding the alarm would turn off after about 3 minutes with the door closed and vents open, and sniffer would return to zeros another 2 minutes after that

I guess I never really understood what the LEL level meant, but was told that was the corresponding value to check when looking for propane leakage, but during all these tests and leaning in to inspect and the trailer and alarm, and even running the heater for prolonged periods regardless of the alarm (experimental only)...
I never once have smelled propane gas


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[jaydon44]

Sounds to me like a measurement problem, rather than a heater problem. Is your safe-T-alert very near the heater? The alarm could just be a delayed reaction to unburned gasses during start-up. The chemical in propane that makes it stink has an odor threshold of about 1PPB (parts per Billion). If there were a problem, you would smell it. The alarms are there to alert you when you are asleep. I would be suspicious of the alarm. All of these alarms have a limited lifespan. I also would not trust measurements in the 1-10 PPM range from your sniffer, unless a calibrated gas is used to set the meter. None the less, low concentrations like you saw of CO and hydrocarbons are normal with a catalytic heater.

Regarding the pad in the heater, I have abused those things in every way imaginable and never had one fail. If you look at the pad in the dark while it is burning, you should just see the glow. If you also see a flame somewhere, that could be a problem.

One more bit. I always mount my cats in a ventilated box. Even though the CO given off by these heaters is low, there is no medical data that defines the effects of long term low level exposure.

I've used and researched these heaters extensively over the last 20 years. Here is a paper that I found to be a good reference: https://cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/CO02_0.pdf

Thanks for response that is reassuring to know my heater element couldn’t be trashed already :S i will try moving the alarm further away from the heater for some more tests and reinspect the heater in a dark room like you say before i throw in the towel and ship it to the manufacturer

And thanks for the link i will give that paper a read!


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[NatersXJ6]

Thanks for reply,

Ya the sniffer I used is an MX6, and yes it was LEL I was measuring , my trailer is a small teardrop style with the heater in the front and center facing the rear and the safe-t-alert is on a control panel door adjacent to the heater...on the front wall facing the back, it is only about 1.5ft away from the heater, i tried using the sniffer in various locations, and got readings between 3-7 LEL 7 was obviously closer and 3 was as far away at the back of the trailer as possible, after killing the heater when the alarm was sounding the alarm would turn off after about 3 minutes with the door closed and vents open, and sniffer would return to zeros another 2 minutes after that

I guess I never really understood what the LEL level meant, but was told that was the corresponding value to check when looking for propane leakage, but during all these tests and leaning in to inspect and the trailer and alarm, and even running the heater for prolonged periods regardless of the alarm (experimental only)...
I never once have smelled propane gas


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MX6 is a high-end sniffer. It should be reading properly if calibrated for propane. However... there is a high probability that it is calibrated for methane. In either event, the readings are close enough to cause concern.

LEL is Lower Explosive Limit, it is the minimum concentration of a flammable substance required in air to cause a flash/fire. For propane, this value is internet published at reputable sources as 2.1%, or 2100 PPM (Parts Per Million).

Your high reading of 7% LEL means you were detecting roughly 2100x0.07=147 PPM.

The facilities I have worked in always call for evacuation and hazmat response at 10% LEL, I would imagine your sniffer is set up to alarm at this point. The facility I currently work in sets the standard for LEL detection at 1’ from the leak point.

For reference, the published IDLH (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) concentration of Propane is also 2100 PPM, while the US OSHA PEL (Permissible Exposure Limit) is 1000 PPM, slightly less than 50% LEL. That PEL is based on an 8-hour shift exposure. The odor threshold of Propane is 12225 PPM, most commercial propane is odorized with Mercaptan, which you SHOULD be able to smell at 1 part per Billion, but not everyone can smell it that low. It really depends on your sense of smell. It is also possible, although highly unlikely, to buy non-odorized Propane. I think it would be nearly impossible to find as a consumer, but you haven’t told us your source.

The bottom line is:

Your alarm is probably right. The dropping O2 levels you measured are the highest indicator and of concern. At 19.5% and lower, air is generally considered O2 deficient. I would not sleep or allow my family to sleep in the space you’ve described with that source.

Knowing very little about your equipment and installation I would first consider that your space is too small or doesn’t have enough ventilation to safely run the heater. Reduced oxygen is likely leading to incomplete combustion and excess fuel release. Space size versus ventilation is sort of a chicken-egg thing. Either or both could be true at once.

I have experience in this field but I am not an expert in any way. I tolerate risk that I understand and control, but am extremely cautious with the lives of myself and my family. Based on the evidence presented, I humbly suggest that you don’t fully understand or control this particular risk, and I would further suggest that you consider changes to your setup or at least not sleeping in the space with an operating heater.

 

[jaydon44]

MX6 is a high-end sniffer. It should be reading properly if calibrated for propane. However... there is a high probability that it is calibrated for methane. In either event, the readings are close enough to cause concern.

LEL is Lower Explosive Limit, it is the minimum concentration of a flammable substance required in air to cause a flash/fire. For propane, this value is internet published at reputable sources as 2.1%, or 2100 PPM (Parts Per Million).

Your high reading of 7% LEL means you were detecting roughly 2100x0.07=147 PPM.

The facilities I have worked in always call for evacuation and hazmat response at 10% LEL, I would imagine your sniffer is set up to alarm at this point. The facility I currently work in sets the standard for LEL detection at 1’ from the leak point.

For reference, the published IDLH (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) concentration of Propane is also 2100 PPM, while the US OSHA PEL (Permissible Exposure Limit) is 1000 PPM, slightly less than 50% LEL. That PEL is based on an 8-hour shift exposure. The odor threshold of Propane is 12225 PPM, most commercial propane is odorized with Mercaptan, which you SHOULD be able to smell at 1 part per Billion, but not everyone can smell it that low. It really depends on your sense of smell. It is also possible, although highly unlikely, to buy non-odorized Propane. I think it would be nearly impossible to find as a consumer, but you haven’t told us your source.

The bottom line is:

Your alarm is probably right. The dropping O2 levels you measured are the highest indicator and of concern. At 19.5% and lower, air is generally considered O2 deficient. I would not sleep or allow my family to sleep in the space you’ve described with that source.

Knowing very little about your equipment and installation I would first consider that your space is too small or doesn’t have enough ventilation to safely run the heater. Reduced oxygen is likely leading to incomplete combustion and excess fuel release. Space size versus ventilation is sort of a chicken-egg thing. Either or both could be true at once.

I have experience in this field but I am not an expert in any way. I tolerate risk that I understand and control, but am extremely cautious with the lives of myself and my family. Based on the evidence presented, I humbly suggest that you don’t fully understand or control this particular risk, and I would further suggest that you consider changes to your setup or at least not sleeping in the space with an operating heater.

Wow ignorance is bliss...or flipping deadly
Ive always been nervous to sleep beside anything other then an electric heater, the plan was to use it only to heat up before bed and maybe in the morning and only when absolutely necessary which would be everyday when winter camping

I opted for the wave 6 rated for a room up to 230sqft only because I thought I would only be using the thing below -10 degrees Celsius, the wave 3 is rated for 100sqft still way more then the space I’m working with: a 5x7 sleeping platform with 4 ft of head space. I figured the extra BTU’s would be needed, but not if i can’t run it without all the windows wide open letting all the cold air in and gorging all the oxygen

Thanks Again


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[NatersXJ6]

You might try bringing a powered vent in right at the heater, but if it was me, I would simply look for a much smaller heater designed for a much smaller space, and save fuel along the way. One thing to consider is that a heater saying “100 square feet” is probably basing the rating on a minimum 8 foot ceiling... 800 cubic feet of air with something like an r-8 wall insulation, maybe lower. You have 5x7x4, probably not a complete cube (teardrop yes?), so less than 130 cubic feet with a similar wall insulation, maybe a bit lower...

Consider that a similarly sized house room would have 320 square feet of wall and 200 square feet of ceiling/floor losing heat. You have at best 70 square feet of ceiling/floor and 100 square feet of wall...

See how fast scaling down the “room” adds up?

I would be willing to bet your heater is about 8-12x oversized against the manufacturers assumptions for your space.

Have you considered a fuel-fired water heater and circulation or something similar that could remove the combustion source from the living space? Even an air-air heat exchanger could be a better bet.

In any event, you should be glad you got the safety alarm. It looks like it was a good investment.

 

[TernOverland]

Wow ignorance is bliss...or flipping deadly
Ive always been nervous to sleep beside anything other then an electric heater, the plan was to use it only to heat up before bed and maybe in the morning and only when absolutely necessary which would be everyday when winter camping

I opted for the wave 6 rated for a room up to 230sqft only because I thought I would only be using the thing below -10 degrees Celsius, the wave 3 is rated for 100sqft still way more then the space I’m working with: a 5x7 sleeping platform with 4 ft of head space. I figured the extra BTU’s would be needed, but not if i can’t run it without all the windows wide open letting all the cold air in and gorging all the oxygen

Thanks Again


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For a space this size, the Wave 6 is almost unusable. I used a wave 6 to heat a 32 foot Airstream. I had a camper that was 8x6x5 inside, lightly insulated, and even the wave 3 was too many BTU for much of my camping. I ended up putting in a way to drop the minimum setting considerably; barely enough to maintain the combustion. One tank of propane lasted an insanely long time. At full heat, it would keep that small space nice down to -10F (-23C).

Here is a chart that is helpful too: https://www.higherpeak.com/altitudechart.html At your location of Lethbridge, elevation 2,900 ft, an oxygen concentration of 18.6% is typical. It naturally varies with elevation.

 

[jaydon44]

For a space this size, the Wave 6 is almost unusable. I used a wave 6 to heat a 32 foot Airstream. I had a camper that was 8x6x5 inside, lightly insulated, and even the wave 3 was too many BTU for much of my camping. I ended up putting in a way to drop the minimum setting considerably; barely enough to maintain the combustion. One tank of propane lasted an insanely long time. At full heat, it would keep that small space nice down to -10F (-23C).

Here is a chart that is helpful too: https://www.higherpeak.com/altitudechart.html At your location of Lethbridge, elevation 2,900 ft, an oxygen concentration of 18.6% is typical. It naturally varies with elevation.

Good to know, guess i probably have to switch to a smaller heater!

Thanks again for taking the time to help me out!


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[biggoolies]

For a space this size, the Wave 6 is almost unusable. I used a wave 6 to heat a 32 foot Airstream. I had a camper that was 8x6x5 inside, lightly insulated, and even the wave 3 was too many BTU for much of my camping. I ended up putting in a way to drop the minimum setting considerably; barely enough to maintain the combustion. One tank of propane lasted an insanely long time. At full heat, it would keep that small space nice down to -10F (-23C).

Here is a chart that is helpful too: https://www.higherpeak.com/altitudechart.html At your location of Lethbridge, elevation 2,900 ft, an oxygen concentration of 18.6% is typical. It naturally varies with elevation.

Just saw this and wanted to say that this chart is wrong in a way. The percent of oxygen at sea level and Mount Everest is 20.9 percent! 20.9 percent of the total pressure. It is the partial pressure of oxygen that varies between these areas. The partial pressure of oxygen at sea level is 150mmhg in that unit of measurement which is 20.9 percent of 760mmhg total atmospheric pressure. The atmospheric pressure on Mount Everest is 228mmhg. 20.9 percent of that is 47.6mmhg which is that partial pressure of oxygen. This is important as if you are lucky to have an oxygen concentration monitor it will show 20.9 percent no matter where you are in the world. Now if the oxygen is consumed by a catalytic heater then and only then will it drop. Keep the window cracked slightly and you will be okay. In Lethbridge the percent of oxygen is 20.9 percent or Anywhere else in this world.

 

[TernOverland]

Just saw this and wanted to say that this chart is wrong in a way. The percent of oxygen at sea level and Mount Everest is 20.9 percent! 20.9 percent of the total pressure. It is the partial pressure of oxygen that varies between these areas. The partial pressure of oxygen at sea level is 150mmhg in that unit of measurement which is 20.9 percent of 760mmhg total atmospheric pressure. The atmospheric pressure on Mount Everest is 228mmhg. 20.9 percent of that is 47.6mmhg which is that partial pressure of oxygen. This is important as if you are lucky to have an oxygen concentration monitor it will show 20.9 percent no matter where you are in the world. Now if the oxygen is consumed by a catalytic heater then and only then will it drop. Keep the window cracked slightly and you will be okay. In Lethbridge the percent of oxygen is 20.9 percent or Anywhere else in this world.

I think the chart was an attempt to make the subject understandable by those without a PhD in physics. In practical terms it is correct, because it is still the percentage as a function of gas volume. That is all your body, or stove, or engine knows. If you take a lung full of air, the amount of oxygen contained in that volume is reduced by the amount shown in that chart. Technically speaking, your assertion is not correct either because it assumes a homogeneous distribution of gasses throughout the depth of the atmosphere. We know that the atmosphere is not homogeneous. A thorough exploration of the subject would probably be better suited for an atmospheric physics forum . All we are trying to do here is keep our heaters running and not choke .

 

[biggoolies]

I have seen so much misinformation on these catalytic heaters on the Internet. Primarily that they create Carbon monoxide. They consume oxygen and don’t create carbon monoxide.
I have also seen a lot of misinformation about oxygen percent in the atmosphere. Gases not being homogenous in our atmosphere likely is another. Gases percentages would only fluctuate very slightly. There would have to be a situation like bacteria consuming oxygen in a closed space. Give some scientific examples of gases not being homeogenous in our atmosphere.

 

[TernOverland]

I agree about the misinformation. I posted this earlier in this thread (post#3): https://cpsc.gov/s3fs-public/CO02_0.pdf It describes the production of CO from catalytic heaters. That's why they always come with the warning to leave a window open. Regarding the atmosphere, it is stratified. Within each strata, the gas composition is fairly constant, but the lighter the gas, the higher it likes to live. Within the altitudes that we inhabit, the differences are admittedly minute. It's just another hair to split. It's all google-able.

 

[xvz12]

Just to raise a point of interest, have you considered one of these?
I know they're diesel fired, rather than propane, but they put the combustion completely outside of your trailer, just running a duct in for heat. Just a thought