Question about head gaskets

[Billinsd]

Everyone, I posted about having a blown head gasket a couple days ago.

Someone I know told me that he does not believe my head gasket is blown. He said there is no way I could have driven it around like I did.

He said he thinks my mechanic shop is taking me to the cleaners. He said he worked for some mechanic shops and was told to do dishonest things and saw people be told their heads were blown, when it was another problem.

I have my blown gasket and it is not really blown out. It was separated, I mean it came apart in the middle. The mechanic said the studs near this section were a little loose and he says that the exhaust was going into the coolant when the truck was under a load.

The person I know said that he has pulled apart a lot of heads and sometimes the gasket comes apart in the middle, or splits just by pulling it apart? This sounds possible to me.

How can a person really trust a mechanic? How can you be sure you are not getting taken to the cleaners?

I still adamently believe the seller knew there was a problem with the truck over heating and lied about it.

Thanks
Bill

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I read your story, real bummer.. Your symptoms are a head gasket or cracked head (which can sometimes be repaired), your mechanic is probably right.. Other signs, some oil in the coolant, noticeable white smoke in the exhaust particularly at startup, gurgling sound in the heater system, unexplained loss of coolant, some stickiness/residue in the oil chambers/under valve cover, etc... Head gasket failure can be mild or severe.. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, good luck with it all...

I never mentioned it but Calif. has the highest amount of small claims cases, there is a whole system just set up for it... I encountered it by accident doing a Google search and it popped up... I would do it, you'll be out $50-100 in fees, worth a shot IMO. The story of this guy is unbelievable, what a POS... If the costs of repair "affect you" then I would try it. Otherwise, if you can afford the fix and don't want to bother, karma and/or internal personal misery will probably get him at some point... I have been F'd over a few times and in some cases even seen the guy's life crumble around him years later to the point where I feel bad for him.. Karma's a **********!

 

[DaveInDenver]

Yup, I remember reading your thread. From your descriptions, it didn't seem unreasonable that you had a HG problem or something wrong with the top end. A compression test is usually a pretty fair indicator of the condition of the head, but that's not always perfect, either. The unfortunate truth is there is only one way to know for sure the condition of the HG and that's to look at it. I'm not the smartest mechanic around, but a split HG is a blown HG IMO. I don't see the distinction between a tear, loss of seal on the block or head side, split, whatever. It all means you are no longer either getting compression in one or more cylinders or the oil and coolant passages are compromised. The end result is a new HG in any case, right? Personally I think the truck was overheated at some point, which caused the head to warp. If it was my truck, I'd pull the head(s) and give them a once over. A few hundred dollars in refreshing the heads and a pair of HG would give me a feeling of security. Plus you can tear the engine open, get pictures and take the guy to small claims court.

 

[Billinsd]

Thanks guys. I really believe the seller knew the truck had overheating problems. Now I am not really sure if he knew the gasket was bad, unless he had the truck checked out.

There is no way I can even prove the gasket was bad before I bought it. I really do not have a case I could win. I am going to drop it. I think the guy is a jerk and will get his.

The truck even with the repairs is still really cheap. I bought it for $14,000 and with $2,500 in repairs at $16,500 it is still a heck of a bargain. I looked at the autotrader and the average year truck is about $19,500 and the high $23,000 and low is $16,000.

You really do not know with used cars, you really do not.

To be honest, I looked at that gasket and it has separated, however I could see where it COULD be possible that it separated when the head was taken apart and I can see where it separated when it was overheated.

It comes down to do I trust my mechanic? I think so, I looked the guy in the eyes and he seemed very honest. The shop has been good to me. I had a timing belt replaced on my Honda and the mechanic did not clip a wire harness and another belt cut it and I got a check engine light.

I mean everyone I have talked with agrees with me, EXCEPT one guy I know that is a mechanic or used to be a mechanic and said he worked at shops where the mechanics would tell people their heads were blown when they came in with overheating problems.

I took it back in and they fixed it without any squabablying for free of course.

Thanks
Bill

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

The chances he did not know are slim and none.. That said if it was a good deal then so be it. Just a bummer he sold it in such a deceptive manner. If it were me I would try the dealer, at least around here the dealer knows their stuff so well, and it is covered warranty & worksmanship wise.. The dealers here, mechanically, are top notch (even if their salesmen suck).. I have done a headgasket job on a similar motor before (V6 Rodeo, GM/Japanese design, all aluminum), what a PITA, I don't know what the room-situation is under the hood of that but I consider myself a pretty decent mechanic but there were so many small and intricate design features that I left myself thinking boy the dealer is the best person for this job. But that said, I am not familiar with that motor. But any V6 with aluminum IMO (is there aluminum on that engine? - The heads, correct?) again left me thinking this is a good job for someone who has done it several times before, and will stand by their work....

I have replaced all sorts of manners of headgaskets, some that were visibly blown between cyls etc, and some that had no visual trace what so ever. So you cross your fingers when you put it back together telling you that hopefully your symptom diagnosis is correct (your symptoms do indicate blown headgasket or a cracked head).. But everytime after all of the extensive work, including some machine-work on the heads (which should be done as mentioned to check for warping and/or cracks), it has panned out, and the engine is good as new...

I hope it helps and good luck with it...!
:beer:

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Also another helpful piece of advice is a shop that is larger, clearly has insurance, has ASE mechanics, etc, also makes big difference.. Even the nicest guy who looks you in the eye might not be the same when the situation changes.. Much like the story of buying the car...! Some people deal with stress and different situations in different manners... ...Including even "managers" at shop you might be inclined to trust... For example I have been buying transmissions from a local and well known shop that is independent, for a few years now.. Probably spent over $5G with them.. But one little incident and they turned on me as a long time, respectful and first name basis customer... ..Sort of their defense mechanism.... I had to really work to get the warranty (two year, which is why I go with them in the first place) I was promised, they sort of did a bait and switch...

Also I try not to have to work on the GF's cars (she drives nice newer ones unlike me :sombrero: ) and when she needs work we send it to Les Schwab or Burt Brothers, which are both big tire chains around here with a decent staff of mechanics. Both are big corporate, and have "we want to retain our customers" policies, so the customer usually wins when complications arise... I am all for supporting the little guy but sometimes the insurance of a chain, *that is owned by a corporation* (some of the tire chains are franchises, I avoid except for tires-only usually) goes a long way... Once, when replacing struts, Les Schwab broke an ear of a slightly rusting knuckle and had to special order a whole new knuckle including rebuilding that whole side, for free and on their dime.. Also with these guys you pay what you are quoted even if its longer or their are complications...

A lot like a decent dealer...

 

[DaveInDenver]

I'm just finishing up my engine rebuild (or more correctly build, it's mostly all new). My $0.02 is that it's something anyone reasonably competent with hand tools /could/ do with enough patience. You will save yourself a ton of money going DIY. But that labor cost might be easily overcome by your sanity and that of your sig. other. Anyway, I would HIGHLY recommend that you surf over to YotaTech and poke around. You will get a lot of opinions, most of which is good and correct and not much attitude. There is a lot of accumulated Hilux, Tacoma, 4Runner knowledge there, probably the best single source of it (sort of the IH8MUD of mini trucks). You'll get an idea of the diagnosis and a range of threads from taking it to a dealer to the true motorhead who does everything himself.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Dave, out of curiosity, don't know that engine..
Would you call that an engine with a lot of intricacies? IE wierd coolant passages and a lot of stuff generally that is bolted to it... Also, are there aluminum components to it (head/block?)

I am not for any particular manner of repair or another and am open to him doing it.. I know Isuzus and Toyotas are a whole different ball game.. I have and will continue to do this job (I have to do it shortly on my Cummins) but I won't, ever, think to do it on an all aluminum V6 Isuzu/GM again, and am very hesitant on particularly belt driven OHC V6 motors... I am a fan of that engine performance and driving-wise, but won't particularly ever work on one again in any major manner

 

[DaveInDenver]

Dave, out of curiosity, don't know that engine..
Would you call that an engine with a lot of intricacies? IE wierd coolant passages and a lot of stuff generally that is bolted to it... Also, are there aluminum components to it (head/block?)

I am not for any particular manner of repair or another and am open to him doing it.. I know Isuzus and Toyotas are a whole different ball game.. I have and will continue to do this job (I have to do it shortly on my Cummins) but I won't ever think to do it on an Isuzu again, and am very hesitant on particularly belt driven OHC V6 motors...

I'm certainly no expert with the 5VZ-FE that he has. My experience so far has been 20R and 22R motors and a little with the 3VZ-FE (sort of similar). My points were mostly that it didn't seem like it would be any worse to do the HGs on a 5VZ-FE in a Taco than anything else made in the past 20 years. Lots of tags, photos and baggies to organize things and a factory manual and diagrams. The engine is a cast iron block, aluminum heads. It's a pretty traditional arrangement in so far as that goes, no weird sleeved cylinders or anything. It's a OHC, 4 valves per cylinder, timing belt. It's not the most simple of engines, that's for sure. But it looks pretty straightforward relative to other engines. What about the Isuzu was the pain? I would think most of the same issues are going to arise with a Tacoma. One thing I notice about Toyota is that things seem logical. Sometimes it takes a minute or ten of fumbling and test fitting, but very often it becomes obvious and clear what the process is and things come apart and go back together pretty much like the FSM says as long as you follow the steps.

 

[Billinsd]

thanks guys. I found out today the radiator was plugged 60%, which is probably why it overheated. The radiator passed the pressure test and was rodded and put back together.

The vacuum test determined that there was a 20% leak on the valves, so I am getting a valve job for another $700.

This should be an end to the bleeding of my wallet
Thanks
Bill

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

The Isuzu had fairly complicated emissions, it had a number of things bolted to the back side of the heads right up against the firewall that were a nightmare.. Required some special tools for bolts in tight places that I had to come up with.. Plus the firewall itself had some sort of insulation that felt like shards of fiberglass in it, so it was not comfortable to jam your hands between the heads and firewall. . You had to undo a plate of some sort that blocked a coolant passage because some of the harness for the emissions were attached... It was basically designed to be as close to work by a certified tech as possible.. The labor hours were representative only of someone who knows their way around the engine, what to unbolt in what order otherwise you get lost..

I spent a lot of time just figuring things out.. It was also an all alumnum engine, requires new head bolts for each head gasket job but Isuzu doesn't even stock them.. I basically came to the conclusion that they consider this era engine to be disposable...

Honestly another suprisingly difficult one was actually a 3FE in a FJ80, believe it or not.. A lot of emissions equipment as well, nowhere near as easy on a 2F or even a EFI Jeep... The headgasket on the Cummins is about 2 hours labor, which is pretty sweet. The engine is as close to as 'brilliantly simple' as possible

The 3VZ-FE is one of my least favorite engines ever.. I am also not a fan of the 22RE for the same reason, semi gutless yet poor mileage... I dispise the amount of work required for the timing chains on the 22REs, and they are tough to seal so they don't leak.. I am a huge fan of the 5VZ however strictly from a performance to fuel mileage standpoint...

 

[DaveInDenver]

The 3VZ-FE is one of my least favorite engines ever.. I am also not a fan of the 22RE for the same reason, semi gutless yet poor mileage... I dispise the amount of work required for the timing chains on the 22REs, and they are tough to seal so they don't leak.. I am a huge fan of the 5VZ however strictly from a performance to fuel mileage standpoint...

Hmmm, you had me up until the 22R-E stuff. ;-) I think the opposite of you, that the 22R-E is one of the better engines. Timing chain, I find that if you are /just/ doing a chain and don't disturb the HG, it's weekend job and I even have IFS (you have to drop the diff to get the oil pan off). This is the third timing chain I've done on a 22R, so I'm getting to understand the system. Sometimes when you do a quick timing chain repair, the corners where the timing cover, block and head come together need a dot of RTV. Otherwise, every 22R that I've seen leak is because they are using cheap gaskets. The common ones are the Fel-Pro oil pan gasket (it's supposed to be FIPG), the timing cover gaskets will weep along the passenger's side or leak at the coolant pipe under the intake or the valve cover & half moons (just snug the 4 acorn nuts, I use a torque of 48 inch-lbs). We'll have to just disagree here, but I specifically rebuilt my 22R-E because it's simple and works. But mostly it's because I'm starting to feel like I know them. BTW, I get around 22 to 24 MPG with my truck, which isn't great I guess but it gets me up the hills in 4th gear (I've geared with 5.29s on 33 tires, which helps tremendously, the engine likes to be at >2500 RPM). The 20R is a little better being undersquare, but none of these engine lug down like a 2F. They need to be at 1500 RPM to start making any power and they start to pull at 3000 RPM.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Interesting.. Anyway!
:beer:

 

[DaveInDenver]

Interesting.. Anyway!
:beer:

Anyway, indeed! Now about that beer. Is it Friday, yet?

 

[Erick Lihme]

Posting a week later one might think it's too late, but those motors ARE a PITA so it is probably still there! Ask them if they believe it would be a good investment while it's tore down, to do the knock sensor (3zv, wire gets toasty) water pump, belt and fan clutch, you'll save $70-80 bucks/hr on labor. A weak fan clutch can have an insidious effect on engine temps. Do everything to keep that motor cool. You would be protecting your investment and have peace of mind. I've just seen way toooo many of these motors, including the 2.7l burn valves and blow HG, crack heads between the valves in hotter climates like Southern California. Also, consider a trans cooler, use the Toyota coolant, and run premium gas. In modern motors, they must push motors heat wise. Toyota had to keep pace, just wish they had done better in the mini trucks. ( apologize for the griping, bring on a turbo diesil!!!!!)

I use a 3 core with my 22RE. It helps a great deal on the trail, towing, and just cruising. The fan clutch rarely engages and usually only softly, leaving the available HP for the road. Because of the inconsistant quality out there these days, I've run into less than fully functioning fan clutchs, even from the dealer, and always carry a spare. Most, and even mechanics tend to overlook this. It's a cinch to r/r on the 22RE, not so on yours. If yours is approaching 100K, just do it.

I guess I'm simply old and slow....:drool: