Supersingles on Dana 19030S?

[Trestle]

Looking at supersingles for a hotshot truck conversion. It looks like I could go to 385/65r22.5 on 12" wide wheels front and rear if I get the offset right. Hub piloted units likely from Alcoa or Accuride. Still working on that, but looking through the Dana catalog I may have ran into a snag. If I am reading it right, it looks like you're not supposed to do supersingles if the offset is outboard of the hub flange. It does not specify if it is OK if there is some overlap, and only if fully outside offset of the flange or not. I've seen the GXV vehicles with supersingles all the way up to 425/65r22.5, but have not been able to find out what rear axle those trucks are built with from the factory. They look to be fully (or close to fully) outside of the hub flange from the pics I can see. It seems like with the Dana units, you have to go above 40k pound axles before they allow supersingle offsets fully outside the hub flange. The GXVs were built up on international 7300 or 7400s. Mine is a 7300. It seems crazy that they would use a 40k pound dana in one of those vs. the 19k pound dana I have, but I am still learning here.

If anyone is familiar with these, or has a source of info, feel free to chime in here.

 

[Trestle]

Additional context. It looks like there are two possible track widths. 72" is standard, & 78" is wide. The structural rating of 21K pounds (yes it is a 19K axle, go figure) is between the differential and the hub end with the spring perch centers set at 38". So the spring perch is the fulcrum point (pushing down) in the teeter totter that is the distance between the axle and hub end (both pushing up). Presumably by adding length to the hub end via extending the virtual center of the wheel, you are making the axle housing longer thus reducing its capacity. We're talking about a truck that had a 29k GVWR, that has been derated down to 26k so as not to require a CDL if registered privately. I will have to look up what the derating reduced the rear axle weight to, then see if Dana has an answer for what the lower axle capacity would be at X distance (also unknown) virtual wheel center if using super-singles. There will also presumably be additional wear on the axle bearings at the hub, and the axle shaft itself, which would likely be the case with any other type of super-single conversion no matter the vehicle.

At this point I seem to be talking to myself, but I'll keep chugging along with the info so as to build information that someone else may be able to use down the line.

 

[heimbig]

Ok call me dumb but how about making your build 7' wide? You would be close to centered over the flange....

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

For anything that big, look for the front axle super single wheels for a cement mixer. The important number is the back spacing. The wheels must not interfere with the brakes. The best backspacing is when the inner rim is closest to the brakes. On a smaller scale, I see those 10 inch wide wheels all around on an F-350 /3500 with a 4.5 inch backspacing which destroy the front wheel bearings over time because the bearings are on a lever with lots of side loading.
I've had my go-round with super singles on my RAM, 375/65R16's (33x15.50's) on 12 inch rims, but only on the rear axle where the camper load is. It is common in the custom camper industry to have wider wheels on the rear than the front. This can also mean wider axles, which is a good direction to go especially with a tall truck.
My solution was to have Stockton Wheel make me a set of 10 inch wide super single steel wheels with a stupid high load rating. They have a 1/2 inch steel plate center with no cutouts welded both sides into class 5 thickness rims.

33x15.50R16's on 12 inch wide aluminum wheels and the stock spare that came with the truck:

jefe

 

[Third]

That's one BEEFY rim there !!!!

 

[Britboaters]

Can you post a link to the Dana catalog you're referring to ?

 

[Mundo4x4Casa]

The reason I went with heavier steel rims: 6800 pounds on the Dana 80, 35 spline rear axle- tire max per that axle: 7720 pounds. These are aluminum wheels after a week in Death Valley:

going over rocks like this, which also bent my rear driveshaft:

 

[Trestle]

Here are screen shots from what I could find on the Dana site.

 

[Trestle]

Ok call me dumb but how about making your build 7' wide? You would be close to centered over the flange....

The rear box is built, and on the vehicle. I will be modifying it, but it is already 8' wide. Additionally the goal is to get one wheel that could be used on the front or rear. Front dished in, and rear dished out. So as to keep the tire tracks as close to the same as possible. I have to find my notes, but they are roughly 10" apart or so. That means a 12.25 wheel (that has a 1" thick center section) will have a very large offset. OK for the front, but according to the above items just posted not necessarily OK for the rear. That means only carrying one spare wheel/tire combo vs. multiples. It also means when the front wheel breaks ground in a track, the rear should follow in and not generate additional drag in soft conditions.

In reality, I may have to go with a garbage/dump truck front tire/wheel, and keep the duals in the rear. Not my preference, but may be my reality.

I have read in the trucking forums that rear axles with outset supersingles can be derated (usually 2 to 3k pounds) so long as they have a strait spindle, but not with a tapered spindle. It may be that Dana does not have a strait spindle option on this axle. If they do, the vehicle has already been derated 3k pounds so that it can be driven non-commercially without a CDL. I have no idea the cost to convert the outer axle spindles from tapered to strait, if it is an option on this axle, etc. yet. I'll have to reach out to Dana directly I suppose. The rear axle shafts have to be pulled anyway since the 3rd member has to come out in order to change the leaking diff gasket. May as well do it at the same time.

I don't want to swap the rear axle for a wider one as this one has a locker in it, and that will be quite hard to find at a reasonable price point.

 

[Britboaters]

Some thoughts....
Do you know exactly which axle you have, by the markings on the axle ? Just to be sure of the correct specs.
Do you know what your actual axle load would be at the end of the project ? To see how much you are "under-rating" your axle.
The way I read the specs, they want you to mount a single tire with it's centerline or track at 72. This would give you an overall width of 84" if you use a 12" wide tire.
If you use a wheel that moves the track wider, you increase load on the bearings; that's why I'm asking the first two questions so you can "judge" the effect of this offset.
One way to use the same wheel front and back is to use a spacer on the rear. The spacer would move the wheel mounting face out so you can mount the wheel in same orientation as front, but get the track you're looking for. This would be a pretty wide spacer, and would need to be properly engineered. This photo from a GVX F550, courtesy Java.

 

[Trestle]

Some thoughts....
Do you know exactly which axle you have, by the markings on the axle ? Just to be sure of the correct specs.
Do you know what your actual axle load would be at the end of the project ? To see how much you are "under-rating" your axle.

Per the build sheet from the manufacturer, it is as follows: "SGL RA 19K 190 WB DANA 19060S Single Reduction, Hypoid Gearing, 19,000lb capacity, 190 wheel ends." Later in the spec sheet is shows "no-spin differential for Dana Spicer (previously Eaton) Rear Axles."

SGL RA is single rear axle.
19K is the rating in pounds. It varies on Dana's site from 19K to 21K for this axle, but the build spec. is 19K.
190 WB should be the vehicle wheel base the axle is designed for, but the actual wheel base is 171.
No idea what 190 wheel ends means. 190mm is 7.5", 190cm is 74.8". That may be it, or it may be something else. They use SAE for everything else, so I can't imagine them using metric.

I also have the ratio elsewhere of 5.29, so that is the ring/pinion ratio.

I know that this is unchanged. The axle has not been swapped or otherwise modified.

The data plate had the vehicle at 29,000 GVWR from the manufacturer. I had the vehicle derated on the door jamb (yes it is legal) to 26,000 so that I don't require a CDL in the state of registration so long as it is a private registration. It is essentially already derated 3K pounds. I have yet to take it to a scale, so not sure how much I have to work with. This is all pre-build out, so doing research at this point.

The way I read the specs, they want you to mount a single tire with it's centerline or track at 72. This would give you an overall width of 84" if you use a 12" wide tire.
If you use a wheel that moves the track wider, you increase load on the bearings; that's why I'm asking the first two questions so you can "judge" the effect of this offset.

I calculate this slightly differently. If the tire is 12" wide, it's virtual center is at 6". 72" centerline track puts the outside tire width (outside tire wall to opposite outside tire wall) at 78" vs. 84". I certainly like the numbers they way they come out in your calculation more than the way they come out in mine. Note: looking at this again I realize that you are calculating both tires at 6" outside, for a combined 84" distance. Now we are on the same sheet of music. I'll be up at the new place I am moving to (where the truck is located) next week. Should be able to re-measure and confirm then. Hopefully that takes some of the guesswork out of this. I think if I get the offset right, simply flipping the wheel for dish in vs. dish out is the way to go vs. spacers. Spacers could be used to fine tune that distance if the limitations of what is on the market (the offsets available) are just off the mark. It all really comes down to keeping that centerline track.

Thanks for making me do some more mental gymnastics. Sometimes we get caught up inside our own head, and need a fresh perspective to help dislodge and get things going up there.

 

[Britboaters]

Discussion is good !
More thoughts; not sure if I'm right though......
I think the overall width of single tires on the front is often less than the outer dual on the rear.
So for the front, the offset, or backspace is set up to clear the brakes; and for wider rims, that width makes the overall width greater.
If you then use the same wheel on the rear, turned around, then that additional width goes on the inside, not affecting overall width.
I think that would mean the single tires might line up better.
However, a lot of garbage trucks use 315/80R22.5 on the front, then dual them up on the rear axle as retreads.
The specs call for a 9" wide wheel; typical 11R22.5 tires use 7.50 or 8.25" wide rims.
Then there's the offset to consider. I'm assuming your truck uses standard 10 hole 285.75 mm bolt circle wheels. If you look at the Accuride catalog, attached, on pages 9 & 23 you'll get an idea of what rim width and offsets are available.
Page 9 for the narrower wheels, page 23 for the super singles.
Good luck !
Bob

https://www.accuridecorp.com/files/2012/10/Accuride-Wheels-Product-Catalog-Summer-2011.pdf

 

[DaeRoamer]

I'm getting ready to build 7400 workstar project and would like to hear your outcome. Global Expedition Vehicles are building on the 7000 series trucks and running singles. Have you talked to them?

 

[zrozbicki]

Picking up this thread years later because I’m in the same boat. Currently working on an International 7400 hotshot truck conversion.
Mine has the two speed rear axle -Spicer M210-T…21,000 LB
If anyone has additional information on what may be possible to convert to super singles on this I’d be all ears. Thank you in advance and if you happen to know of anyone who may know how to work this out, but who doesn’t bother with online forums…I’d love to learn who they may be and how I may contact them. Thank you in advance.

 

[motorman]

if you have 10 lug hub pilot wheels then Accuride 29374 / Alcoa 82462 should be the correct wheel for front and back for 385/65