The Insider’s Guide to Buying a Pop-Up Camper

[drodio]

I just did a complete write-up of my experience visiting the following manufacturers

• Sportsmobile
• Four Wheel Campers
• Hallmark
• Phoenix
• Outfitter
• XP Camper
• EarthRoamer

and I created a buyer's guide from this two year odyssey. Enjoy; I'd love to get your feedback.

 

[NothingClever]

We wanted a camper we could be confident taking to remote parts of the world for an extended period. We wanted a camper that we knew wouldn't leak — and even if it did leak, that it wouldn't matter, because water wouldn't ruin the framing. We wanted a camper that avoided the typical RV build quality approach and instead used marine-grade components throughout (the boating industry, due to the harshness of the salt water environment, typically has to use much higher grade materials than the RV industry).

Just some supporting commentary - Hallmark's use of their solid carbon roof and Coosa Bluewater 26 frame easily meets those leak-proof and marine-grade benchmarks with Bluewater 26 already held in high industry regard. Also, Hallmark uses urethane adhesive glue with their Coosa frames, not just staples, so I'd say they're expedition grade. Of course, I'd also say a Subaru Outback with a Maggiolina, a fridge and an alcohol stove or, hell, even a Trek 520 with some pedestrian Blackburn racks would be expedition grade but Mom wasn't having anything to do with those options for our "big trip"....alas, I digress.

Here's a link to get back on track: http://www.truckcampermagazine.com/...the-world's-first-all-composite-truck-camper/

Your article is a good primer for folks new to the pop-up camper world. Might want to include the Australian-made EarthCruiser in the $100k + category. I'm going to be happy with what I bought (an XP) but I will always lust after an EarthCruiser on an '06 FG platform. The EarthCruiser only lost out because I didn't feel like dipping into our retirement home fund and because I was too impatient (and too out of the country) to find an '06 FG. In the middle was the XP and running a close, close second behind the XP was a Hallmark Everest.

 

[drodio]

@NothingClever, thanks for those links -- yeah the EarthCruiser looks great.

I'd love to hear more about the current status of EarthRoamer. I understand they've had some trouble in the past, but the owner Mike I met with seemed truly passionate about the business and about it's future. Is there more to the story? I'm mostly curious because at some point in the future I might consider a larger vehicle (not sure yet -- the XP may be large enough but at some point I'll have kids to haul around and I'd imagine it'd get tight at that point).

 

[Ramblinman]

Thanks for the write up - good read.

 

[Larry]

I just did a complete write-up of my experience visiting the following manufacturers

• Sportsmobile
• Four Wheel Campers
• Hallmark
• Phoenix
• Outfitter
• XP Camper
• EarthRoamer

and I created a buyer's guide from this two year odyssey. Enjoy; I'd love to get your feedback.

From your website...


I hope that writeup helps. Since I’m so impressed I am by the XP Camper, it’s very likely I’ll dedicate some of my time and resources to help the owner Marc make XP a better known option, and it’s also very likely that Sue and I will buy an XP ourselves, although we haven’t yet. So in the future, you’ll likely see a lot more involvement from me with XP, which may influence your perception of this article. So let me just state for the record that as of the time of this post I have no financial connection to any of these manufacturers, and no incentive to promote one over any of the others.

Take the time to make your own informed choice, which should include a visit to all of the manufacturers if possible — or at least, watch all of the videos I took when we visited ourselves — so you can really evaluate each of them for your needs.

Lastly, good luck, and I’ll see you on the trails!

I like the idea behind your reviews, amateur journalism or whatever you call the thing you are doing. Unfortunately, some unsuspecting sole could easily stumble upon your website and mistake your views as view of a professional product reviewer in the RV or outdoors industry, and that is not the case. You are just a guy shopping for a camper and posting your personal views in a blog that carries the appearance of a professional product review type organization OR, a person with an unorthodox marketing motive to promote XP Campers being you will be dedicating some of you time and resources to help the owner Marc make XP a better known option. I maybe going out on a limb here but I also suspect you misrepresented your intentions with the videos and pictures you took as you visited these facilities. That sounds like something that could get real ugly with lawyer types if that is the case.

Have you ever thought for a second of the damage you can do to these small operations with some of the things you are writing? None of the camper companies you visited are major corporations where they can afford to deal with the bad press of the likes of any amateur product review journalist, such as yourself. XP can’t afford that either, nor can they afford to have some amateur journalist blogger type guy bashing everybody else’s products and practically creating the illusion he may have some type of resource involvement with XP? The part about dedicating time and resources to help promote XP just doesn’t sound right after giving less than sterling reviews to practically all of other camper offerings.

I do agree that anybody in the market for a true off-road type camper owes it to themselves to research each camper option on the market and visit with customers that own the products. I know I did when I was in the market. Each of the camper manufacturer’s you visited all build great campers although each company has their own quirks that appeal to different people for different reasons. For example, I didn’t care for the tall boat hull looking bed area above the truck cab of the Outfitter, the Hallmark was just too over the top in cost, weight and size. I found FWC people difficult do work with and I forgot the name of the other company that builds aluminum frame campers but theirs seemed a bit too plain with limited options. XP was still in proto mode then so they were not an option. In my case I found the Phoenix the best of all worlds.

You bashed Phoenix the worst and I got to tell you, I’ve had great luck with mine. I too made tours, inspected real world campers, attended shows and reached out to owners of campers to gauge their repurchase intent and never found any unhappy customer with a Phoenix. Nor a FWC, Outfitter, etc. for that matter. My Phoenix has been shaken, beaten, bounced, twisted, frozen and baked all over Southern Colorado, Utah and Arizona and the only problem I’ve had with it is the water heater started acting funky. Phoenix quickly took care of the issue even though the problem really wasn’t theirs but more of a problem with the water heater suppliers component. This supplier happens to supply the entire RV industry with heating components. On top of that, Phoenix fixed this out of warranty on their own goodwill.

I feel your review of Phoenix was not appropriate as the camper in your video isn’t even a production camper but a camper they were building for themselves for a personal vehicle. In the eyes of some people that may confuse your website for a professional product review website could be misled into believe Phoenix campers are horrible. You really should go back and review your write up before you wind up in a big mess where nobody in this small industry will allow you in their door to write any so called reviews…except for maybe XP?

 

[LegendTX]

Agree with Larry

Well said Larry. I feel the review seems very biased as well as foolish and misleading to call his opinion a "Buyers Guide".

I too am an owner of a Phoenix Pop-Up and feel that the review was very misleading and slanderous against them. My camper has held up extremely well and the craftsmanship was outstanding. Rob was the only builder who would build the design that I wanted and was willing to work with me to meet my budget. I believe that Phoenix offers the best "Value" of all the pop-up manufacturers that were reviewed but that's my opinion.

My point in responding to this thread, is to express my support for Phoenix and encourage potential buyers to do your own research instead of relying on someone else's opinion.

 

[Ramblinman]

!!!!

I think its great that anyone can express their ideas or thoughts on the internet. The problem with professional Journalism (Magazines, TV Shows, etc) is that they DO NOT provide objective opinions. I am guessing that in the event they do not provide a positive review of a particular product they lose revenue by way of advertising. What we get is advertising articles with no objective information.

The OP is endorsing a product just like you are endorsing Phoenix. I will decide which opinion that will hold weight and make my decisions from there. Its the internet for pete sakes!

The OP is allowed to have an opinion. It was a great article to which he provided info that he thought was important. Incidentally he slammed my camper (and you did to) but I am a big boy and I appreciate that he had the cajones to tell it how he thinks it should be told.

Moreover, this forum (for me anyway) is an excellent opportunity for me to gather objective information from other people from their real life experiences. If it was not for people posting and telling us what they think is what, this site would be just another advertising portal in which no one could get real unbiased information - thus useless in my eyes in that there would be not honest info. It is up to the users to decide what info is good and which info is bad.

Lots of people rave about Phoenix ... relax ... I am pretty sure they will not go out of business. In the mean time please do not discourage posters from voicing their opinion because this type of unbiased information is why most of us come to this forum.

I am sure those lawyers you speak of are well versed in that thing called "Freedom of speech" .... But hey ... I am a Canadian

 

[4xdog]

The writeup drew big conclusions about quality levels between manufacturers in the sub $30,000 class, promoting some and dinging others, with zero supporting information. An opinion is fine, but it has to be supported with facts.

Pretty useless to me. Sorta like a restaurant reviewer who states a spot was fantastic or a dish was delicious. That doesn't tell me what kind of ingredients were used or how the details of preparation and presentation were handled, how authentically the dish was prepared to accepted standards, details about the service and operation -- all the things that make a real review.

Don

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Sorta like a restaurant reviewer who states a spot was fantastic or a dish was delicious.

Yes - except a restaurant reviewer who didn't actually taste any of the dishes, just inspected the kitchens.

Drodio, your impressions from factory visits might have some value, but until you've used these campers I'm not sure you're justified in calling your article a buyer's guide. Call it a comparison of first impressions, a review of camper assembly lines, whatever. "An insider's guide to buying" seems hugely premature.

 

[Overland Hadley]

It would be nice if you noted that you can purchase a new Four Wheel Camper shell for well under 10k, $7595 in-fact. You can either build out the interior yourself or go with a basic shelter. I know this is not for everyone, but until I found the shell model a truck camper was beyond me.

 

[ripperj]

I'm new here, but I read the article immediately after it was posted. I felt that it came to some VERY strong conclusions based on very little fact. The video of the Phoenix build showed some poor stitching and implied the rest of the poor build quality would be evident in the pics/video. What I saw was an unfinished build with no caulk/trim ect. How can this be a fair comparision to pics/videos of a completed build??

I was told(months ago)(still trying to confirm) that Phoenix uses the same canvas maker as the other camper builders in the area(Outfitter and Hallmark)?? (ANYONE KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE)

IMHO a real review would have done things like compare drawer construction from all the builders, show a corner joint from all the Aluminum frame builders comparing welds and fit ect. Maybe a cutaway veiw of roof construction-something with some meat and no emotion!

The fact that Hallmark had a bigger and busier shop does not mean much to me!!!( It is an impressive operation and they do appear to make nice stuff!)

Also having an unequal amount of video/ pics between differnt builders is not fair either.

I already saw a poster here on another thread linking to the article when a person asked "who makes this camper"- sending a potentially new reader to the IMHO biased review vice the Phoenix web site.( and then stated he agreed with the outcome with no supporting comments)

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/90742-What-make-model-camper-is-this


I Don't know Pheonix Campers from Adam, I spoke with Rob and Cari on the phone a few times, they seem very nice and most importantly to me-VERY excited and willing do something different (custom to them is not changing cushion fabric )

I sent them a sizable deposit(few weeks ago) based on web research and finding people like Larry above who wheels with his and Runt who seems to spend lots of time in very cold weather, far from civilazation
(I didnt even bother calling Rob and asking for any elaboration or comments on the review)

I was hoping some of these actual owners would post(and be honest if there are issues), so thanks Larry and Legend TX

I do appreciate the time it takes to make a comprehensive review, and I give kudos to the OP for trying, but in my opinion the review does more harm than good.

My issues with the review have nothing to do with which builder came on top or bottom, or freedom of speech(really, we needed to go there??), but the lack of detail and unequal coverage

Keith

 

[docdave]

I was thinkin' the same thing, still, the guide is a good STARTING point, as long as the reader doesn't stop doing his/her own thinking. I visited the Big Three builders myself, and came to some of the same conclusions. While Phoenix lacks a bit of the sophistication of Hallmark, they fill an important niche in the industry, and judging from many posts on this forum, build a product that satisfys discriminating customers. In his post, Hadley mentions the availability of a shell model from FWC, which is a valid point, a model that is also available from Phoenix. Myself, I really like the Hallmark, and the guys there have always treated me well with questions and service on my old camper, but I would seriously consider a custom from Phoenix, if/when I buy new.

 

[drodio]

The OP is allowed to have an opinion. It was a great article to which he provided info that he thought was important. Incidentally he slammed my camper (and you did to) but I am a big boy and I appreciate that he had the cajones to tell it how he thinks it should be told.

Moreover, this forum (for me anyway) is an excellent opportunity for me to gather objective information from other people from their real life experiences. If it was not for people posting and telling us what they think is what, this site would be just another advertising portal in which no one could get real unbiased information - thus useless in my eyes in that there would be not honest info. It is up to the users to decide what info is good and which info is bad.

Lots of people rave about Phoenix ... relax ... I am pretty sure they will not go out of business. In the mean time please do not discourage posters from voicing their opinion because this type of unbiased information is why most of us come to this forum.

I am sure those lawyers you speak of are well versed in that thing called "Freedom of speech" .... But hey ... I am a Canadian

Thx for that, @ramblinman.

I'm totally happy to see satisfied customers sticking up for Phoenix. I understand that Phoenix isn't happy with me, but hopefully they'll realize that people airing their opinions (no matter what those opinions are) is a good and constructive thing, not a bad thing. I just wrote based on what I saw, so take it for what it is, just one person's opinion, nothing more.

I come from the tech startup world where the only thing that sucks is when people don't care. As long as they have an opinion -- even if it isn't positive -- then at least it means the brand is *relevant*. So I welcome an open and heated discussion, where everyone can share their opinions, because it means that the consumer has a lot more material to look through. I put my opinions out in the open and I welcome anyone else to do the same.

Note: I also just moved all the blogs I wrote over to a new blogging platform that allows for much easier commenting on the posts themselves. So all you Phoenix fans out there, go to town on my post; you can bash my methodology all you want, I really won't mind. Again, I welcome the open conversation.

Here's the new URL for the Phoenix post specifically: http://lifewetravel.com/phoenix-pop-ups-truly-custom-but-questionable-worksmanship

And here's the URL for my overall writeup: http://lifewetravel.com/our-two-year-journey-choosing-a-pop-up-camper (thx for the feedback on the title, FYI. I changed it to be more reflective of the process we went through).

 

[drodio]

I'm new here, but I read the article immediately after it was posted. I felt that it came to some VERY strong conclusions based on very little fact. The video of the Phoenix build showed some poor stitching and implied the rest of the poor build quality would be evident in the pics/video. What I saw was an unfinished build with no caulk/trim ect. How can this be a fair comparision to pics/videos of a completed build??

Hi Keith. re: fair comparison: When my wife and I visited all the different facilities, we saw campers in all stages of construction from everyone. That's very clearly shown in all of our videos. I was also very clear in my post that the camper I saw at Phoenix was one the owner was making for himself. Does that mean that the owner puts less time/quality into a camper for himself vs. a customer? Maybe. I don't know. Doesn't really matter -- again, all I was doing was sharing what we saw with our own two eyes as we evaluated a manufacturer to buy from. The Phoenix folks told me after the fact that it was only a mock-up that they were showing me, so that might explain everything.

I was told(months ago)(still trying to confirm) that Phoenix uses the same canvas maker as the other camper builders in the area(Outfitter and Hallmark)?? (ANYONE KNOW IF THIS IS TRUE)

The Phoenix folks told me that this is indeed the case.

IMHO a real review would have done things like compare drawer construction from all the builders, show a corner joint from all the Aluminum frame builders comparing welds and fit ect. Maybe a cutaway veiw of roof construction-something with some meat and no emotion!

The fact that Hallmark had a bigger and busier shop does not mean much to me!!!( It is an impressive operation and they do appear to make nice stuff!)

Also having an unequal amount of video/ pics between differnt builders is not fair either.

We didn't stay very long as it was obvious to us that in our opinion, the quality was lower than at other shops. I'd encourage you to do your own review; it sounds like you have a lot of your own opinions and you're very pro-Phoenix, which is great. So just take the time to visit the factory and write up your opinions like I did. I'd love to compare notes and have an open dialogue about what I saw.

I do appreciate the time it takes to make a comprehensive review, and I give kudos to the OP for trying, but in my opinion the review does more harm than good.

My issues with the review have nothing to do with which builder came on top or bottom, or freedom of speech(really, we needed to go there??), but the lack of detail and unequal coverage

Well Keith, I appreciate that you give me Kudos for trying. I don't believe there is such a thing as "more harm than good." For example, we're all talking about Phoenix right now. The fact that we're having a conversation about them is valuable to their brand. So even if you don't feel the review was balanced (an opinion you're entitled to), I'd disagree that it's harmful. Maybe it's a chance for all the loyal Phoenix fans to share their really positive stories.

As I said in my review, my wife and i are on a shopping mission to find the right camper for us, and I wanted to share what I found with others. I believe VERY STRONGLY that information should not be censored or restricted. We're not living in China. We're all entitled to our share opinions with others and people can make their own decisions. These are just my opinions and I encourage anyone else to take their own visits to the factories. If Phoenix gets a boost from sales due to all of the dialogue around the post I originally wrote, then that's awesome. I would have no problem with that.

I'd also encourage you to leave our comments on the post itself, so anyone who visits that page can see what you think. Here's the URL: http://lifewetravel.com/phoenix-pop-ups-truly-custom-but-questionable-worksmanship. Heck, get every Phoenix owner out there to speak to the awesomeness of the brand as a comment either here, or on the post itself. That's cool with me. Again, it all comes down to open information & everyone being entitled to an opinion.

 

[drodio]

I like the idea behind your reviews, amateur journalism or whatever you call the thing you are doing. Unfortunately, some unsuspecting sole could easily stumble upon your website and mistake your views as view of a professional product reviewer in the RV or outdoors industry, and that is not the case. You are just a guy shopping for a camper and posting your personal views in a blog that carries the appearance of a professional product review type organization OR, a person with an unorthodox marketing motive to promote XP Campers being you will be dedicating some of you time and resources to help the owner Marc make XP a better known option. I maybe going out on a limb here but I also suspect you misrepresented your intentions with the videos and pictures you took as you visited these facilities. That sounds like something that could get real ugly with lawyer types if that is the case.

I moved the reviews over to my & my wife's personal travel blog so it'd be super obvious that this is just us shopping for a camper (it also has way better commenting functionality, so feel free to post your opinions there directly). re: videos -- I told everyone I was doing a blog as a part of my research.

Have you ever thought for a second of the damage you can do to these small operations with some of the things you are writing? None of the camper companies you visited are major corporations where they can afford to deal with the bad press of the likes of any amateur product review journalist, such as yourself. XP can’t afford that either, nor can they afford to have some amateur journalist blogger type guy bashing everybody else’s products and practically creating the illusion he may have some type of resource involvement with XP? The part about dedicating time and resources to help promote XP just doesn’t sound right after giving less than sterling reviews to practically all of other camper offerings.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And as I wrote in a post just a minute ago, I think that sharing my opinion, whether positive or negative, is a contribution that lets others make their own decisions. So I don't buy the "you're hurting the brand by exposing what you saw" argument one bit. What I saw is what I saw, and I think you and anyone else deserves to see that so you can decide for yourself if you want to learn more about any of the brands.

My wife and I spent a lot of our own money to make the trip out to all of these facilities and record what we saw. I don't have any financial interest with any of them. I can understand that my "amateur journalist" approach might be weird to you, but remember that I'm a tech guy by nature, so capturing lots of content and writing up my opinions is second-nature to me. You can find my personal tech blog at www.DanielOdio.com , where I do that kind of stuff all day long.

Were Sue and I impressed by the XP? Absolutely. I think it's amazing. That's just me as a shopper deciding where to put my hard earned money. We are very likely going to pay 2x what any other camper would cost to get an XP. Why would we do that? Because in my opinion, after visiting all of the factories, the quality is in a different league. As a small business owner myself, do I want to support others that I think make incredibly good products? I do, and I might end up doing just that, because I'm so impressed. Is this an ad for XP? No. I encourage everyone to make their own visits and form their own opinions.

I do agree that anybody in the market for a true off-road type camper owes it to themselves to research each camper option on the market and visit with customers that own the products. I know I did when I was in the market. Each of the camper manufacturer’s you visited all build great campers although each company has their own quirks that appeal to different people for different reasons. For example, I didn’t care for the tall boat hull looking bed area above the truck cab of the Outfitter, the Hallmark was just too over the top in cost, weight and size. I found FWC people difficult do work with and I forgot the name of the other company that builds aluminum frame campers but theirs seemed a bit too plain with limited options. XP was still in proto mode then so they were not an option. In my case I found the Phoenix the best of all worlds.

Hey that's awesome, and we're in total agreement on this point.

You bashed Phoenix the worst and I got to tell you, I’ve had great luck with mine. I too made tours, inspected real world campers, attended shows and reached out to owners of campers to gauge their repurchase intent and never found any unhappy customer with a Phoenix. Nor a FWC, Outfitter, etc. for that matter. My Phoenix has been shaken, beaten, bounced, twisted, frozen and baked all over Southern Colorado, Utah and Arizona and the only problem I’ve had with it is the water heater started acting funky. Phoenix quickly took care of the issue even though the problem really wasn’t theirs but more of a problem with the water heater suppliers component. This supplier happens to supply the entire RV industry with heating components. On top of that, Phoenix fixed this out of warranty on their own goodwill.

Again, awesome. I'm glad the loyal and happy Phoenix owners are responding. I have no issues with that. It's great.

I feel your review of Phoenix was not appropriate as the camper in your video isn’t even a production camper but a camper they were building for themselves for a personal vehicle. In the eyes of some people that may confuse your website for a professional product review website could be misled into believe Phoenix campers are horrible. You really should go back and review your write up before you wind up in a big mess where nobody in this small industry will allow you in their door to write any so called reviews…except for maybe XP?

My approach may be unconventional, but I believe that in time, people will appreciate my open, honest and transparent style. I just capture it as I see it, and then form an opinion from what I saw. And if not, then we can just agree to disagree. I'm OK with that.