Waterproof Breathable Clothing – When is it optimal and when is it not?

[Cee-Jay]

Waterproof Breathable Clothing – When is it optimal and when is it not?

The last 10 years or so, waterproof breathable materials (and water-resistant breathable materials) have exploded on to the clothing scene. No longer appearing just in winter jackets, pants, gloves and rain gear, today you'll find them in just about any kind of clothing you can think of: hats, so-called soft shells, sweatshirts, shirts, soft hiking pants, etc. It seems just about everything gets the water treatment and maybe even the wind treatment these days.

Although the industry leader Gore-Tex is still around, there has been a proliferation of competing products. Still, Gore-Tex is more breathable then nearly all of them. Some of the cheaper ones are terrible in terms of breathability.

Please share your opinion on when is it optimal and when it is suboptimal to use waterproof breathable clothing.

My opinion:

Optimal Uses - Rain Gear
Optimal Uses - Gaters in damp environments
Optimal Uses - Boots/Shoes in very damp environments
Optimal Uses - Select winter clothing in environments that experience frequent rain and/or thaw quite a bit during the day; gloves, pants, hard shell.

Most other uses are suboptimal in my view. If I am in a dry environment, I don't need this stuff other then perhaps a lightweight shell just in case. In a wet environment (I live in Seattle), my want for waterproof breathable clothing is still very limited.

Breathability is my main beef with the waterproof-breathable craze; most of the fabrics out there are not very breathable at all (not to mention all the wind resistant membranes, which are also not very breathable).

As somebody who tends to run hot and who sweats pretty easily, I almost always want to wear the most breathable fabrics I can. When it is raining out, a nice tightly woven old-school synthetic wind shirt or 100 weight fleece is actually quite water resistant and relatively breathable. If it is raining harder, an uninsinuated Gore-Tex shell with ample air vents does the trick. I just don't see why I'd ever want waterproof breathable shirts, sweatshirts, fleece, soft-shell etc. A simple Gore-Tex hard shell will almost always provide better breathability and combined with standard non-treated clothing (fleece, shirt etc) will give me a much more flexible adventure wardrobe.

I am open to the possibility that specific conditions in certain activities may call for a soft-shell or some such and if I tended to run cold then I might appreciate the added warmth caused by lower breathability fabrics. But my personal experience has been that these items are a waste of money, unnecessary and actually inferior.

Of course, we have different bodies, tastes and preferences... so I don't expect you to come to the same conclusions that I have. Actually, I hope many of you will disagree so that I might learn something.

 

[Christophe Noel]

I've never seen a waterproof/breathable fleece and I work as a professional buyer, buying from TNF, Marmot, Sierra Designs, Sherpa, Arc'teryx, Mt Hardwear, OR, and several others. Never seen a waterproof/breathable sweatshirt either.

I'd also challenge that GTX is the most breathable ptfe membrane on the market. eVent and others do quite well for themselves as is true for a variety of the membranes like Hyvent, etc.

In a nutshell any membrane based garment, hard shell or soft shell, will be ideal for wet environments in scenarios where the inside temp of the garment exceeds the outside temp. Pretty much a no brainer, there.

 

[Cee-Jay]

I've never seen a waterproof/breathable fleece and I work as a professional buyer, buying from TNF, Marmot, Sierra Designs, Sherpa, Arc'teryx, Mt Hardwear, OR, and several others. Never seen a waterproof/breathable sweatshirt either.

I'd also challenge that GTX is the most breathable ptfe membrane on the market. eVent and others do quite well for themselves as is true for a variety of the membranes like Hyvent, etc.

Flouder:

I respect your views and I'm sure you know a LOT more about clothing than I do, as I am not in the industry. That being said, type in "Waterproof fleece" and see how many items pop up on Google. It is especially popular in the hunting community. The wind resistant fleece is common too. In this post, I'm really talking about treated/membrane garments for both water and wind.

Okay, now type in "Waterproof shirt" and you'll see several options. Now Google "Waterproof sweatshirt" or "Waterproof hoodie." You will see several items come up. I would not say they are super common, but I think they are an example of just how popular this stuff has gotten.

I said GTX was better than most, not THE best. I didn't mean to imply that GTX was the ONLY way to go and I acknowledge that there are a handful of other quality membranes.

In my opinion, when I choose waterproof breathable garments I am often trading dryness in exchange for higher cost and significantly less breath-ability. With a few exceptions, I think this is generally a bad trade for me to make. My point is that a light weight water-proof breathable shell (roomy enough to cover base layers) is all that I need. Why would I also want a down vest with waterproof treatment, a waterproof soft shell, etc? No need for a whole bunch of water proof garments when I can simply throw a shell over top of a down vest, over top of a fleece, over top of a soft top, etc. Many of these products seem redundant, from my point of view.

 

[haven]

I found waterproof breathable outerwear to be best suited to my trips to Alaska (Anchorage, Fairbanks, Denali, Dutch Harbor, St Paul, Nome, Barrow) in early summer. The weather was cool, humid and wet, but not so cold that the fabrics became stiff. I did wear rubber boots a lot of the time, which required a change of socks at mid-day to keep perspiration from accumulating.

A guide I met in Alaska swore by his waxed cotton jacket. I think it was a Barbour product.

In the tropics, the temperature was too high for waterproof/breathable garments. Better to get wet than drown in your own perspiration. I usually wore a T-shirt and carried an umbrella.

 

[Christophe Noel]

Flouder:

That being said, type in "Waterproof fleece" and see how many items pop up on Google. It is especially popular in the hunting community. The wind resistant fleece is common too. In this post, I'm really talking about treated/membrane garments for both water and wind.

There are two ways to waterproof garments. One way is to apply a coating to the outside of the fabric and have that alone fend off the water. A nice thick candy shell, if you will. This method is tricky as most coatings have to be applied such that they loose breathability. Siliconized fabrics as an example are coated. Even waxed canvas is coated. The other method is to use a ptfe membrane or something similar. GoreTex as an example is a membrane. Think of it as super thin, porous saran wrap. It has to be bonded to something - a parent fabric. It can easily be bonded to nylon and that's what makes a waterproof hardshell work. You can even bond it to a soft-shell. Windstopper fleece uses that same membrane (more pores psi) sandwiched between layers of microfleece to block wind - NOT water. Fleece cannot be seam taped to be fully waterproof.

So, that google search only turns up "waterproof fleeces" that have a hard shell exterior and a fleece liner. Because the membrane is INSIDE the jacket the exterior has to be able to be waterproofed, usually with a DWR coating. In theory, you could put a membrane inside a cotton hoody, but the exterior would still need to be made waterproof with a DWR coating.

To your point, using a hardshell as your primary weather defender is most common. However, a waterproof/breathable soft-shell with a GTX type membrane is pretty sweet. It may be most useful in cooler temps, but softshells were designed to be more durable and less, "crinkly" that a hard shell. Putting a membrane in a down or synthetic jacket is also pretty slick as it protects the fill, and negates the need for the shell layer. These "stand alone" pieces are designed to negate the need for layers to protect layers.

Ultimately, the only things that can be made truly waterproof via membranes and taped seems are nylon hardshells, soft shells and insulated layers made with nylon. YOu can't waterproof fleece without a nylon shell.

 

[Christophe Noel]

To really put you guys to sleep....

A proper hardshell as an example has three layered components. There's the very whispy and delicate membrane layer. There's the outer parent fabric, usually nylon. Then there's the inner most layer. That layer is very important. In a premium jacket (or shoe) that layer is there to assist moisture as it passes through the membrane.

I love Cocona liners. Cocona is a fabric made of fibers from, you guessed it, coconuts. If you looked at a poly fiber it would be smooth. If you looked at a Cocona fiber, it would look like a hair with thousands of holes in it. Those holes increase surface area and serve to fragment moisture molecules. So, your body sweat escapes your body, hits your base layers, brakes up into small droplets, then hits the Cocona liner where it's REALLY broken up into tiny molecules that your body heat reduces even more to vapor which THEN, and only then, can pass through the membrane. If the build up of moisture inside the jacket overwhelms the systems ability to vaporize that moisture, the whole thing gets wet from the inside, clogging the pores in the membrane and becoming a wicked sweat box.

I bring this up because lots of people will complain endlessly that their $600 membrane jacket doesn't breath when they're the problem as they chose crap base layers and don't understand how base layers and shell layers work together.

 

[Ramjet]

Flounder, most people are misinformed from the start. You have given some solid info here. Thanks. We should have a beer at OR in January. I'll buy. I'm a sales Rep for a shoe company you might have heard of. Hell, you might have come by our booth a time or two. I won't say who I work for over the air waves though. What store are you at? Major retailer? Or Specialty?

 

[Christophe Noel]

I work specialty retail, but we're a pretty good sized store. One of the bigger ones in AZ.

 

[Cee-Jay]

Fleece cannot be seam taped to be fully waterproof. So, that google search only turns up "waterproof fleeces" that have a hard shell exterior and a fleece liner

It may be that fleece cannot strictly speaking be made waterproof, but nonetheless some garments are marketed as such. For example, this. But anyway I'm talking about the proliferation of waterproof breathable, wind-resistant and water-resistant products using a membrane, laminate or coating. So my opinion is the same whether we're talking about Windbloc, Windstopper, eVENT, PreCip, Omni-Tech, Entrant, etc. All of these approaches trade a measure of wind and water protection in exchange for higher cost and a major decrease in breath-ability.

To your point, using a hardshell as your primary weather defender is most common. However, a waterproof/breathable soft-shell with a GTX type membrane is pretty sweet. It may be most useful in cooler temps, but softshells were designed to be more durable and less, "crinkly" that a hard shell. Putting a membrane in a down or synthetic jacket is also pretty slick as it protects the fill, and negates the need for the shell layer. These "stand alone" pieces are designed to negate the need for layers to protect layers.

I'm aware of the concept (avoiding layers), I just don't think it's worth the loss in flexibility and versatility to me. I agree that the loss of breath-ability is less worrisome in cold temperatures (or for a person who runs cold).

I would love to know what you personally choose in this regard. When you are taking a multi-day drip in uncertain weather, do you use the classic backpacking 101 wicking base layer, highly breathable insulation layer and roomy water-proof breathable shell set-up, or do you tend to avoid layers by using a Windstopper fleece (which is very water resistant, though it can take a while to dry), a coated down jacket, etc?

 

[Christophe Noel]

I would love to know what you personally choose in this regard.

I'm beyond particular. It probably stems from the fact I spend 40 hours a week for work pouring over product catalogs and going through countless technical presentations with reps and designers all year long.

For starters, I'm not at all one for "overland costume." I won't buy something just because it looks like it deserves a safari. Tactical? Not a chance. Some of today's popular overlanding go-to items are crap. One such garment beloved by overlanders for it's quasi-tactical, signature overlandy appearance features idiotic combos like a waterproof zipper for the main closure, but big gaping #5 YKK non-waterproof zippers on pockets. They even put zipper garages (for water proofness) on non-waterproof zippers. My point being, much of the "overlander" apparel is junk aimed at a sucker's market just looking for costume and aesthetic. Okay, end of that rant. For the real overlander stuff worthy of an actual adventure, Charlie at Expedition Apparel is the real deal.

As an avid Über-light bike packer, my go-to for a crazy compact hardshell is the Arcteryx Alpha SL jacket with GoreTex Paclite. At 345 grams it's tiny but bombproof. It's my storm jacket for warm summer temps. My favorite base layers are from Icebreaker. The 150 weight wool layers are summer appropriate. My absolute favorite insulation layer is the First Ascent MicroTherm Down Shirt. Again, this is a summer appropriate piece if cool nights are a concern.

That system covers me for most overland type travels I do. I have other pieces for colder climes, but they somewhat mimic that system above.

 

[Cee-Jay]

A guide I met in Alaska swore by his waxed cotton jacket. I think it was a Barbour product.

Interesting Haven... I've never seen any actual laboratory results, but I've always heard/believed that waxed cotton is much less breathable than the top water proof breathable membranes of today... not to mention heavy. But if you are in a really cold environment, less breathable can be a plus if it keeps you warmer I suppose. Again though, this is based on hearsay.

Flounder: Thanks for sharing. That's some nice gear you're working. I really like the Eddie Bauer/First Ascent down shirt.

PS: I'm cool with soft shells cut large enough to be outer layers but the slim cut products designed to combine mid and outer layers seem impractical to me. Sure, there are certain situations in which that garment might be ideal, but overall I think it's too specific to be versatile and practical. If I'm traveling for a week or a month or whatever, I don't want to pack a bunch of overly technical niche gear... too much stuff. Your set up is nice and versatile.

 

[Cee-Jay]

Here are some information sources on waterproof breathable fabrics:

1) The Backpacker's Handbook by Chris Townsend - Nice chapter on clothing including an indepth discussion of wind and water resistant clothing. Townsend is a big proponent of the old three layer system (wicking base layers, highly breathable midlayer, wind/water resistant shell when necessary) and is NOT a fan of combining mid and outter layers per current trends.

2) Rainwear: How it Works - Quite extensive explanation provided by REI... definitely not some shallow sales pitch.

3) Waterproof Ratings and Breathability Guide - Not as good as the REI explanation, but still decent.

4) Waterproof Breathable Fabric Explained

5) Breathability: An Explanation of Its Importance, Mechanisms and Limitations

An opinion I agree with:
Why Waterproof Boots Are Overrated

 

[Co-opski]

Much like Flounder, I have found that a light layering system has treated me well for most activities in the mountains.
I have replaced much of my Goretex Proshell outer layers with eVent, like trading in my Arcteryx Alpha SV for my Westcomb shell, my bibs are still Goretex XCR with Patagonia and Proshell with Arcteryx Sidewinder. eVent breaths like no other menbrains out there, I've tried all the Gore products and many of the house brands like H2No, and MemBrain. Most of the wetness I feel is from my own sweat as I'm moving up hill. I do look forward to trying the NeoShell from Polartec here soon.

Layering Ibex has stood the test of many trips. Layering with the Indie hoodie (light), Shak (mid weight) or Nomad hoodie (heavy). Wool just simply works and Ibex seems to last a minute longer than my Patagonia, I/O, and Icebreaker gear. I do have a thin synthetic puffy the Montbell UL Thermawrap much like the Nanopuff from Patagonia. I use these synth materials because down is worthless in the Chugach and Kenai mountains with our humidity and constant precip. My over coat puffy is not waterproof but also synthetic, Wildthings Belay jacket. This is just a little tougher than the new design of the DAS Parka.

Those are just some of the layers that I could choose from. I find on long tours in the backcountry a softshell is what I want over my light wool layers. I no longer have any softshell that have wind or waterproof layers. The Ibex Equipo jacket breaths well made with Schoeller and wool fabric it is a mountain beast, just wish it had pit-zips. Now depending on the weather I may put a puffy or a shell over this for the ride down. I do cary both just in case.

Now for the times that these techie materials stay at home. If I'm walking an ATV through 100 miles of Taiga, and blazing a trail, or fishing and I don't mean grayling on a 4 wt dry fly, the Helly Hansen's and Grunden's come out. These work well with a 200 weight fleece (like NOMAR) under them if you find yourself out in the Gulf of Alaska and want just a little more warmth. The waxed canvas jackets and bibs like my Filson gear works well in the damp fall, for around the cabin chores where I may snag a nail.

And like Cee-Jay boots with a membrane (Gore/eVent/ect.) just are not worth it. I have my leather mountaineering boots LaSport Makalu where breathability just is not needed and I may through on a vapor barrier or eVent sock in them as needed. When I want a rain boot my extratuf or muckboots get put on. I did buy some lighter LaSport Gore GTX boots for my NaPali Coast trail hike. I trashed them on lava rock in three weeks, but I'm glad I was not using my Chaco sandals on that hike, and I could not even tell that they were breathable in a wet 70+deg climate.