What will an overweight Taco and a slip off a rock get you?

[wicked1]

This!


Slipped off a ledge. Heard a clunk. Didn't think much of it. Drove up over the rock ledge I slipped on. Continued driving down the trail and heard a couple other clicks.. Nothing too loud or anything. Got to the trail head and put it in 2wd. The drive shaft spun, but the wheels didn't. Put it back in 4wd to use the front wheels to slowly drive about 60 miles back to civilization.

Then the only place open was a Toyota dealer, so I took it there, and rented a car to drive back to my city. Few days later Toyota decided this was not something they can handle. I have aftermarket finals, and they weren't comfortable swapping gears. (They treat the diff like a black box.. Just replace the entire thing). So, had to remotely find a gear shop. Find a tow. Everything went great, though. It's at the gear shop now, and they seem to have it all under control.

I should have asked them to put in a locker instead of new spider gears.. I called to mention it, but he had already ordered parts and planned the job..

-Edit to clarify 'slipped off a ledge'.. I was driving up a rough forest road. There was a maybe 6" ledge in the road. Front wheels drove right up it. The rears had a little trouble gripping on, but did. I was giving it pretty much throttle because the rig is heavy.. Then the rear wheels lost traction and slipped down. Likely speeding up a lot once they were free. Then they hit the ground stopping immediately. The drive shaft was still spinning, though, and that energy had to go somewhere. It went to the gears.

 

[AggroCrag]

How much over weight were you?

 

[rruff]

I have aftermarket finals...

You don't think that had something to do with it? Maybe not, but I wonder if the job was done improperly. Pretty much every Tacoma used for camping or overlanding is overloaded... by a lot.

 

[wicked1]

maybe 'something' to do with it.
The OEM spider gears stripped.. not the ring and pinyon (finals).
But yeah.. I mean.. Different gear ratio, giving more torque.. with the truck weighing almost twice a stock truck. With much heavier wheels and tires.
I'm sure it all had something to do with it.

But like I said.. it lasted about 80k miles in this configuration before I had an issue. Guess that's not too bad.
-edit, apparently I didn't say.. Was thinking of a different forum. But I did put about 80k miles on it, since it had the camper and gears and all installed.

 

[wicked1]

How much over weight were you?

Oh, I thought I posted more info here, but that was on a different forum. I'm a lot overweight, heh..

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

Oh, I thought I posted more info here, but that was on a different forum. I'm a lot overweight, heh..
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If my Google skills are correct, that puts you about 1360 lbs overweight, so about double the recommended payload - is that correct? It would depend on the year of your Taco so I'm not sure. If that is the case, I think it's a testament to how tough these trucks are that you make it 80k miles like that. Did you do anything to your brakes? And what kind of suspension are you running? I run near max weight all the time and have been considering an upgrade for my brakes, but I'm curious what your experience was in stopping power/distances. I genuinely appreciate you sharing this data. There's a lot of discussion about weight here and I think most people agree that lighter is better, it's always better to understand real-world use cases in addition to the "on paper" capabilities of these trucks (which appear to be driven, at least partly, by emissions legislation vehicle categories, and not necessarily design/engineering constraints -- i.e. if the GVWR is under 6k lbs, it counts differently for CAFE stuff, even if the frame, brakes, suspension, etc. is all capable of more than that on paper).

"Most rigs will get you there, but a Toyota will get you home" seems to ring true in this instance, even if it had to claw its way back on it's front wheels!

 

[Mickey Bitsko]

Thank goodness you didn't kill anyone. Smh

 

[wicked1]

Thank goodness you didn't kill anyone. Smh

I'm not sure how slipping down a few inches off a small ledge could kill anyone, but agreed.. It's always a good day when no one dies.

 

[wicked1]

If my Google skills are correct, that puts you about 1360 lbs overweight, so about double the recommended payload - is that correct? It would depend on the year of your Taco so I'm not sure. If that is the case, I think it's a testament to how tough these trucks are that you make it 80k miles like that. Did you do anything to your brakes? And what kind of suspension are you running? I run near max weight all the time and have been considering an upgrade for my brakes, but I'm curious what your experience was in stopping power/distances. I genuinely appreciate you sharing this data. There's a lot of discussion about weight here and I think most people agree that lighter is better, it's always better to understand real-world use cases in addition to the "on paper" capabilities of these trucks (which appear to be driven, at least partly, by emissions legislation vehicle categories, and not necessarily design/engineering constraints -- i.e. if the GVWR is under 6k lbs, it counts differently for CAFE stuff, even if the frame, brakes, suspension, etc. is all capable of more than that on paper).

"Most rigs will get you there, but a Toyota will get you home" seems to ring true in this instance, even if it had to claw its way back on it's front wheels!

I don't know the exact number, but yes, about twice recommended. 2012 taco. I was surprised by how heavy it is, when I finally weighed it (years after it was built). And this is after replacing two heavy lead batteries w/ one light lithium, replacing the heavy glass solar panels w/ light flexible ones. Removing extra bed pieces and other stuff we don't use. It's the weight of all the gear and full tanks of gas, but not food or water.. so we're even heavier at the start of a trip.

Brakes are not great. I cannot lock them up on dry pavement. I can on wet or gravel. It will throw me forward in my seat, but not lock up the wheels or turn on ABS, on dry pavement. I haven't done anything to them yet, including different pads. Basically I had Toyota take care of the truck until the big 90k maintenance.. Then I decided I'd start doing it all. So, so far everything has been factory. But I am putting on different pads now, which should be a little bit better.. (more dust, shorter life, but with a bit more friction). I have 16" wheels, so don't have many options for big brake kits, or anything else. They're fine.. As good as older vehicles I've driven.. But not as good as a new factory tacoma w/out all the weight.
The rotors have been turned a few times but are still original. Pads have been replaced two or three times. I'm putting on new rotors and pads as soon as I get my truck back.

Suspension is OME Nitrocharger shocks w/ OME 650lb springs in front, and a custom Deaver leaf pack in the rear. Also airbags in the rear for fine adjustments. It's good, but a little too stiff for the driving I do. I'm seriously considering a tuned Fox/King setup.. Was actually days away from purchasing Fox from Accutune when I broke my truck. So, money is going to the diff, for now.


The truck has been great. I've driven it on very rough roads on mountains, in canyons. Much larger ledges than the one that broke it. I've had no braking issues in the mountains or steep grades off-road (well, back roads.. I never really go "off" road). I did crack the aluminum frame which holds my flatbed on one particularly rough trip. But the truck has been flawless.

 

[Mickey Bitsko]

Flawless !?, you mean it still runs .

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

I don't know the exact number, but yes, about twice recommended. 2012 taco. I was surprised by how heavy it is, when I finally weighed it (years after it was built). And this is after replacing two heavy lead batteries w/ one light lithium, replacing the heavy glass solar panels w/ light flexible ones. Removing extra bed pieces and other stuff we don't use. It's the weight of all the gear and full tanks of gas, but not food or water.. so we're even heavier at the start of a trip.

Brakes are not great. I cannot lock them up on dry pavement. I can on wet or gravel. It will throw me forward in my seat, but not lock up the wheels or turn on ABS, on dry pavement. I haven't done anything to them yet, including different pads. Basically I had Toyota take care of the truck until the big 90k maintenance.. Then I decided I'd start doing it all. So, so far everything has been factory. But I am putting on different pads now, which should be a little bit better.. (more dust, shorter life, but with a bit more friction). I have 16" wheels, so don't have many options for big brake kits, or anything else. They're fine.. As good as older vehicles I've driven.. But not as good as a new factory tacoma w/out all the weight.
The rotors have been turned a few times but are still original. Pads have been replaced two or three times. I'm putting on new rotors and pads as soon as I get my truck back.

Suspension is OME Nitrocharger shocks w/ OME 650lb springs in front, and a custom Deaver leaf pack in the rear. Also airbags in the rear for fine adjustments. It's good, but a little too stiff for the driving I do. I'm seriously considering a tuned Fox/King setup.. Was actually days away from purchasing Fox from Accutune when I broke my truck. So, money is going to the diff, for now.


The truck has been great. I've driven it on very rough roads on mountains, in canyons. Much larger ledges than the one that broke it. I've had no braking issues in the mountains or steep grades off-road (well, back roads.. I never really go "off" road). I did crack the aluminum frame which holds my flatbed on one particularly rough trip. But the truck has been flawless.

Based on what you have written, you may want to seriously consider upgrading rotors and pads (not just pads and OEM rotors) in addition to losing as much of that weight as you can. The big brake kits do make a difference, but the biggest difference comes from upgrading standard size rotors and pads to better quality versions of the same size, like having rotors that dissipate heat better, at least according to these tests from the 4WD Action guys. It's an eye opener at just how much weight makes a difference in stopping power:


With the way you describe your braking, I think you are risking a close encounter with Bullwinkle or his cousins, especially as your current brakes get hot in hilly country. Newer Tacos aren't exactly the gold standard of braking performance - every other mid size truck is better in that department -- so if you aren't on par with a modern Taco, I would say your brakes stop you when you've got time to plan the stop (i.e. you can start stopping well back of that T-intersection or red light), but they likely do not serve the emergency function you might need them to. It's also a risk that if someone else has to stop for Bullwinkle (or literally any other reason), you can end up hitting them from behind as their brakes are likely to perform way better than yours. But the overall point is, better pads and rotors can make a huge safety difference, even if your room behind the wheels is limited.

I do not think you are alone in being heavy -- most Overland rigs I see featured on instagram and elsewhere on social media are way over GVM, and yet are held up/celebrated as "great rigs". We've got a culture in this hobby of overloading our rigs, that's for sure, and I'm guilty of it as well from time to time. I'm currently looking to replace my tent with a lighter option, and I have a re-design of my drawer unit that will shave quite a few pounds, and every pound counts. Going lighter is advantageous all around - fewer component failures, better handling, better fuel economy, and more. If you do intend to shed some weight, you might want to spend time on that project before investing in new suspension, that way you can dial in your new suspension for your new weight.

There have also been extensive discussions on what being massively overweight might mean from a liability perspective - i.e. does it impact civil liabilities or insurance -- though no one has found a non-commercial example where this concern has been tested in court.

 

[rruff]

There have also been extensive discussions on what being massively overweight might mean from a liability perspective - i.e. does it impact civil liabilities or insurance -- though no one has found a non-commercial example where this concern has been tested in court.

The overloaded pickup will still stop a hell of a lot quicker than the large truck or RV that is tailgating you... and you manage it the same way you hope they are, by slowing down and allowing more space. If you are in traffic and fail to stop, then it's your fault regardless of the reason.

 

[ChasingOurTrunks]

No disagreement here, Rruff - it's always the responsibility of the one doing the rear-ending to....well, not do that. I think that's how it plays out in the legal side of things too but I am not a lawyer. I think the challenge is that brake fade sneaks up on you and I think it would be compounded in OP's case given his brakes "aren't that great" at the best of times. To illustrate, I imagine Cruising down the Coquihalla, truck gets going a bit too spirited so the driver presses the brakes, knowing full well he's got quite a cushion for the car in front of him but he wants to preserve that so he slows down. They work as expected and speed is scrubbed, and the brakes are released and the truck gets going again. So far, responsible driver doing responsible driver things. A few moments later, a construction truck in the right lane causes a pulsing of slowing again, and again wanting to preserve his space cushion, again the brakes are pressed and they perform more or less as expected. A few moments after that, after we're back up to speed, a Deer hops out onto the road a few cars in front. Brakes are pressed and....truck does not slow as expected. More pressure on the pedal improves it some, but the car keeps going. There's a brown trousers moment as the car doesn't slow nearly as expected, and that can throw all the other calculus - how much space left between cars included -- out the window. Suddenly what was "ample space" between cars on the first braking is not nearly enough on the third and there's an accident. It's totally the driver's fault, no question, but whose fault it is doesn't really change the scenario which sadly happens all the time, especially on longer trips for flatlanders -- i.e. if a person is used to cruising around Saskatchewan and decides to head out to the mountains for a change, this experience can be a total surprise as 'you don't know what you don't know' and they may not have experienced it before.

I can't say for sure but I wonder how much fade is happening in OP's case from his first brake application given how they are described to be working. All that extra weight is extra energy, and that is a lot of extra energy for the brakes to put into heat, so I wouldn't be surprised if they are fading regularly. A brake upgrade would help with that and allow him to stop with more confidence, and upgraded rotors will cool a lot faster than the stock ones so his brake performance on the second or third press will improve too (or at least, it should). And, swapping rotors for upgraded versions is fairly easy, and only a marginal cost on the overall project considering he's already going in there for the work.

 

[NoDak]

Oh, I thought I posted more info here, but that was on a different forum. I'm a lot overweight, heh..
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You are exceeding the rear Gross Axle Weight Rating of a Tundra...

 

[rruff]

Good ceramic pads should perform well when hot... yes? Maybe slotted rotors for the front too... not too expensive. Even with the stock setup you'd need some pretty extreme use before you'd have fade. The worst is dragging brakes for long distances on descents, and many poor drivers don't realize that is a bad thing... or that they can prevent it by downshifting (even on an automatic).

The knowledge and skill to safely pilot a heavy and high CG vehicle is certainly higher compared to a typical sedan. But when you consider that a 80 year old can hop behind the wheel of a 40ft RV with nothing but car driving experience... I'm not too concerned about overloaded pickups.

I was going to make the same comment, NoDak! The 2.5gen Tundra axle ratings are 4150lb rear and 4000lb front. I think 4160 on the rear is ~1,000lbs over for a Tacoma. The CG of wicked1's added weight is probably behind the rear axle, which I guess isn't that weird for a shortbed. I'm not sure how the weight imbalance will effect braking and handling, but it doesn't seem good to have so much weight on the rear axle.

Wicked1... if your OMEs are stiff even with all that weight, I suspect they might be sticking or something. I put Ironman FC Pros on my Tundra and have been happy with them. They have high digressive damping, and price is comparable to OME when they have 25% off sales (which is about half the time).