Where can I find valuable info about insulating exposed underbelly tanks and pipes

[magic tingles]

Hi folks,
I want to winter camp / boondock with no hookups with my 4wd Class C and still have use of water systems and not burst pipes or have lines freeze up
My black and grey tanks we well as some related piping are exposed, lifepo4 batts inside, have solar, gas gen and RV propane forced air ducted heater
Will have a valve that allows to add 20lb propane tanks and also ordered a plethora of 12v ultraheat and facon tank and pipe heaters which will go on soon too
Fresh tank is inside under bed and water supply lines are on floor, near edges and some are sandwiched in layers of floor
There is minor insulation in floor and walls I believe as well as single pane
I was thinking of sealing the underbelly with coroplast (corrugated plastic) like is done in some rvs and may still do that
Was crawling around underneath yesterday
Theres a lot of gaps, mechanicals , hot things, there and probably cant easily cover the whole thing, maybe just up to rear axles
Was thinking there are spray ons, adhesive stuff, pool noodles/wraps or other techniques I'd like to learn about too
I don't plan on doing any perm mods with walls, floors, ceiling
Are there any good specific internet groups on and off facebook where people geek out about this stuff?
Thanks,G

 

[billiebob]

If you are parked for any length of time, tarp the sides and pile snow for a start.
Where? What kind of low temperatures? Filling out your profile would help.

 

[Joe917]

Grey water is easy, leave the valve open and drain into a 5 gallon pail.
Black water is even easier if you eliminate it completely by going to a composting toilet.
Water tanks really need to be inside the heated envelope, trying to insulate around an existing tank on a standard class c is going to drive you crazy, trying to heat it with 12V pads will take a ton of power.

 

[magic tingles]

If you are parked for any length of time, tarp the sides and pile snow for a start.
Where? What kind of low temperatures? Filling out your profile would help.

I'd be powder chasing (west coast primarily), not staying anywhere for long
What is missing from my profile? Got my rig and location

 

[magic tingles]

Grey water is easy, leave the valve open and drain into a 5 gallon pail.
Black water is even easier if you eliminate it completely by going to a composting toilet.
Water tanks really need to be inside the heated envelope, trying to insulate around an existing tank on a standard class c is going to drive you crazy, trying to heat it with 12V pads will take a ton of power.

Tossing grey is a no no. I'm sure a lot people have opinions about this one
I don't plan on composting toilet
I was thinking a combination of different types of applied insulation, covering the rear end and partially ducting the furnace, all for naught?

 

[willywalderbeast]

Tossing grey is a no no. I'm sure a lot people have opinions about this one
I don't plan on composting toilet
I was thinking a combination of different types of applied insulation, covering the rear end and partially ducting the furnace, all for naught?

I’ve looked into it as well. Don’t think it’s doable off of battery power alone. If you were going to have access to a cord all the time then yes, insulation and heating pads/tape might do it along with some anti freeze in the grey and black but the draw would be too much for a normal battery bank/solar setup I believe.

 

[billiebob]

Got my rig and location

I can't find location.
Insulation only works if the air behind it is warm. Unless you are always adding heat the tanks will cool and freeze. You will need the tanks and lines empty on the highway no matter how much insulation you add. I'm thinking this will be a frustrating project and if you spray foam everything that spray foam will be in the way if anything freezes and breaks.

Lift the suspension 2", box all the plumbing with rigid insulation, add a heat duct and return air. Buy LOTS of propane.

 

[luthj]

Insulation helps, but you need to continuously supply heat to the compartment. Are you going to see sub zero F temps? That's a whole different level of prep needed.

The fastest way would be to completely box in all the water systems. If necessary enclose the entire underside of the vehicle, except driveshaft and exhaust. Coroplast or aluminum panels, plus rigid foam (XPS or polysio) can be combined to make a good box in most cases. Only use insulation that will not absorb water. Expanding foam can work, especially for sealing gaps.

Then duct heat in. If you have a forced air heater/furnace you will need to experiment with how much air you need. There must be an outlet, or the a return to the heater. This can be difficult to setup.

Instead of hot air you can use a glycol/coolant loop. Purchase a coolant heater (gasoline or diesel versions are available). Install it with a decent sized holding tank (say 2 gallons, you can also install an electric element to heat the tank with a thermostat when on shore power). Take the coolant/glycol lines and run them so they are in contact with the tanks, and pipes, and radiate heat into the newly made underbody compartment. Setup a thermostat to heat the space to 50F or so. The Rixen system based on the Espar D5 heaters does this, but you can build your own.

There was also a 4/5kw diesel air heater which also provided hot coolant for similar purposes, which was posted up in the 200$ chinese heater thread a few days ago.


After you have evaluated all of this, you may very well decide its not worth the effort and cost. Instead a portable toilet inside the camper (composting units work very well too) eliminates the back water issue. Gray water can be drained into a bucket with some antifreeze, and disposed of at a dump station or toilet. The actual water tank, if exterior can be heated if insulated very well. Many opt to just use a second water tank inside the heated space (say 5 gallon plastic containers). And change the plumbing to allow pulling from this source.

If you have never experienced the frustration, its useful to imaging this type of scenario. You are out in the snow for 8 hours. Its maybe 5F outside. Sometime after you leave, the heater stops working. Batteries dead, out of fuel, propane regulator craps out, etc. The interior of the RV (most are very poorly insulated) drops rapidly. The underbody tanks start to freeze first. Then the interior lines, and finally the traps in the plumbing. You come back to a cold vehicle. You get the heater running, but by now its been 12 hours, everything outside is frozen solid, and the interior lines are full of slush. It can take 8 hours or more to thaw things out. If you are lucky the lines purge, the pumps work, and there are no leaks. If you are unlucky then you have water leaking from drain traps, cracked fresh water fittings, etc.

 

[BritKLR]

Our Tiger has all its lines and water tank inside so, we don't have an issue with those freezing. The grey and black are underneath/outside. Early Tigers weren't meant to be winter campers but, since we living in Colorado it just happens. Anyway, the only thing I've found that works is adding RV antifreeze to the tanks in sufficient quantity to just keep it from freezing. It will reduce the capacity of the tanks but that's better then a giant frozen chunk. One of the more challenging issues is finding dump stations during the winter. Many are closed so their systems don't freeze. Plus, it's just a pita to flush your system when it's 20 degree, windy, you've just shoveled the snow out of the dump station and their water line is frozen, Good luck.

 

[magic tingles]

I’ve looked into it as well. Don’t think it’s doable off of battery power alone. If you were going to have access to a cord all the time then yes, insulation and heating pads/tape might do it along with some anti freeze in the grey and black but the draw would be too much for a normal battery bank/solar setup I believe.

There's an onboard gas gen, shared 55gal? tank
When I've boondocked for months at a time in non freezing temps for most its was all off smaller solar system, never needed to run gen
In winter expect to need to run this often even w ~400ah lith/solar (snow, low light, etc)
I may look into a low volt autostart feature, (another item on the list .. )

 

[magic tingles]

Insulation helps, but you need to continuously supply heat to the compartment. Are you going to see sub zero F temps? That's a whole different level of prep needed.

The fastest way would be to completely box in all the water systems. If necessary enclose the entire underside of the vehicle, except driveshaft and exhaust. Coroplast or aluminum panels, plus rigid foam (XPS or polysio) can be combined to make a good box in most cases. Only use insulation that will not absorb water. Expanding foam can work, especially for sealing gaps.

Then duct heat in. If you have a forced air heater/furnace you will need to experiment with how much air you need. There must be an outlet, or the a return to the heater. This can be difficult to setup.

Instead of hot air you can use a glycol/coolant loop. Purchase a coolant heater (gasoline or diesel versions are available). Install it with a decent sized holding tank (say 2 gallons, you can also install an electric element to heat the tank with a thermostat when on shore power). Take the coolant/glycol lines and run them so they are in contact with the tanks, and pipes, and radiate heat into the newly made underbody compartment. Setup a thermostat to heat the space to 50F or so. The Rixen system based on the Espar D5 heaters does this, but you can build your own.

There was also a 4/5kw diesel air heater which also provided hot coolant for similar purposes, which was posted up in the 200$ chinese heater thread a few days ago.


After you have evaluated all of this, you may very well decide its not worth the effort and cost. Instead a portable toilet inside the camper (composting units work very well too) eliminates the back water issue. Gray water can be drained into a bucket with some antifreeze, and disposed of at a dump station or toilet. The actual water tank, if exterior can be heated if insulated very well. Many opt to just use a second water tank inside the heated space (say 5 gallon plastic containers). And change the plumbing to allow pulling from this source.

If you have never experienced the frustration, its useful to imaging this type of scenario. You are out in the snow for 8 hours. Its maybe 5F outside. Sometime after you leave, the heater stops working. Batteries dead, out of fuel, propane regulator craps out, etc. The interior of the RV (most are very poorly insulated) drops rapidly. The underbody tanks start to freeze first. Then the interior lines, and finally the traps in the plumbing. You come back to a cold vehicle. You get the heater running, but by now its been 12 hours, everything outside is frozen solid, and the interior lines are full of slush. It can take 8 hours or more to thaw things out. If you are lucky the lines purge, the pumps work, and there are no leaks. If you are unlucky then you have water leaking from drain traps, cracked fresh water fittings, etc.

Thanks, Great info, will help as I incrementally try to harden and try out colder temps, really trying to get it useable this season for a trip or two
I ordered a bunch of this stuff https://www.annodindustries.com/shop/13-5-vdc-self-regulating-self-limiting-heating-cable.html for supply lines that are more likely to freeze
Mostly would like to go to ski resorts along contiguous US, that would be a small part of it's overall use
If have to bail out, can just stay at a hotel (as long as drivable )

 

[luthj]

Check power consumption for those heating cables.

 

[magic tingles]

Check power consumption for those heating cables.

I spent many hours reading up on the stuff at ultraheat's site, btwn 4 and 50w each piece if i recall
ordered an autosensing regulator , bunch of switch banks, thick wire, etc

 

[luthj]

As long as your charging sources can keep up with the load you should be okay. To make the electric heat effective, you need thick insulation. 1" minimum, and very low air infiltration into the heated space.

 

[magic tingles]

I can't find location.
Insulation only works if the air behind it is warm. Unless you are always adding heat the tanks will cool and freeze. You will need the tanks and lines empty on the highway no matter how much insulation you add. I'm thinking this will be a frustrating project and if you spray foam everything that spray foam will be in the way if anything freezes and breaks.

Lift the suspension 2", box all the plumbing with rigid insulation, add a heat duct and return air. Buy LOTS of propane.

I just checked my profile, looks like there was a zip in there for location, don't recall putting it there, so maybe was part of of sign up, I dont know the nuances, changed to words
Added a signature too
Not sure how easy it will be to keep everything empty for every highway leg of trip so would prob need run heating elements while driving
I'm ok w burning thru propane, part of the deal, I think I wrote in OP that have an adapter to use 20lb tanks instead of hunting for onboard refill stations, that would suck