Help with Purchase 1993 Classic LWB
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REDrum
Aventurero de la Selva
Either you are missing something in your post to indicate sarcasm, you don't care for the FZJ80 looks, or you know nothing of the vehicle. There is a reason in the ROW they retain their resale higher than any other SUV.
David Harris
Expedition Leader
Don't think he was talking about resale. There are plenty of perfectly practical and reliable vehicles out there that do well in resale and satisfaction with the average consumer. A lot of them are Toyotas, Hondas, and the like, but there is a reason they don't make it onto Top Gear, calendar/poster shots, movies, ads or television commercials very often. . .
REDrum
Aventurero de la Selva
Nor was I...the FZJ80 is consider one of the finest and most reliable SUVs ever made (perhaps second only to the UZJ100). Thus demand sets the resale price. Some may argue its esthetic, but few will argue against its record of off-road and overland performance. If esthetics is paramount in a vehicle, sure, go buy something English or Italian. Don't take me wrong, RRCs (and Series) are iconic trucks and I love their looks, just horridly unreliable--its one of the reasons I own a trailer...
Knock on wood.
IMO, LR are as unreliable as any expensive euro vehicle and in my experience of 5 LR vehicles and 20 years of ownership I have had two times where I had to get a tow. One water pump in my Disco 1, one heater core in my '93 RRC (and likely I could have bypassed and got back on the road).
On yota, you likely are good to let stuff fail and then replace it. If you do this on an LR, it will self destruct. Preventative maintenace and regular maintence is the key.
Considering the money that Toyota cost, I am sure, in the end they are not going to be that different cost of ownership and if you get a LR with great maintenance and at a low cost the LR might be less.
Don't get me wrong a Yota is more reliable, but you have to pay a major premium for that and they are all just plan, with no class or apeal. They are just pretty ugly.
The only LR that I feel was more expensive than other vehicles I have own was one that I bought brand new and I will never buy a brand new vehicle again.
A good example is an '04 Disco vs 4 runner or Taco. You're likely to be looking at a 10k difference in price. That is a lot of maintenance. I really do want a small truck, but so far I just cannot rationalize a yota.
David Harris
Expedition Leader
LR's aren't just aesthetics. They are legends for a reason and have gone and will go everywhere Toyota's have gone, and do it with more style to boot. They just require more attention to detail in the maintenance to do it. I have been relying on high mileage Rovers for my daily transportation for years and the only thing that has stopped me beside the road is a fuel pump that was original and had 140K miles on it. I looked a lot at Land Cruisers before I drove a Rover, and have driven many, but just never liked the feel of them, especially steering. Their overhang is too long and their suspension doesn't articulate well, compared to the Land Rover. Brakes aren't very good either. So, in the end all the LC has going for it is reliability and resale. This is the fall back for every Toyota owner when rationalizing paying way too much for an old vehicle with often over 200K on it.
I own both Toyotas and Land Rovers. My first car was a Land Rover 1967 Series 2 Wagon with a sliding safari top, which my dad bought new the year I was born. Great vehicle but definitely one that taught you how to fix things in the middle of a mud road with mosquitos biting your face. My 91 RR Hunter (with a manual 4 speed) was great when new but quickly started having stupid manufacturing-related issues. I loved that car but finally gave up trying to stay ahead of the issues and sold it after 2 years. My Disco 2 was absolute junk when I bought it new in 2000. So I quickly rebuilt it, along with a lot of warranty work (new transmission, wiring harness, leaking headlight housings, sagging rear door, and 4 very expensive but totally warranty-covered leaking or shattered heated windshields) and now it's rock solid. Of course, a lot of the vehicle is now made of OME / ARB parts but at least it is reliable. I do love driving the Disco, however, with the big ARB bumper and winch up front, the lockers, and the solid axles. Really drives like a truck should.
So, a mixed record at best for Land Rover.
Regarding Toyota, my 87 FJ60 has been a fantastic vehicle from new. It has never broken down on me and the only recurring issue has been with the choke cable binding. However, that issue has never stranded me. I've driven this thing from AK to Utah, South Carolina, Maine, Minnesota, etc multiple times. No mechanical issues. Zero. It is now 26 years old. My 94 4Runner - no real issues mechanically since new (replaced the RR Hunter). Had to replace the head gasket at 125k. The front hubs squeal something fierce at -40 F (have since new) but are fine when they warm up. Some rust along the glass on the tailgate. No other issues. 98 FJ100. Perfect for 272k miles, including many offroading trips to Utah, traveling the Alaska Highway, the Dalton and Dempster, Mexico, and Central America. Zero issues except I had to replace the key as I had worn it out.
Bottom line - I have never had a single issue resulting in a mechanical breakdown with one of my Toyotas. I would drive any of them from Cleveland to Alaska and back tomorrow with no fears. And the newest one is 15 years old. I absolutely cannot say the same thing about my Disco, although I love it just the same.
Now, you will notice that I do not have a Toyota newer than 1998. Although the new ones are nice (especially the FJ200) they seem a little too feature rich for me. And the interior plastic is a bit too much for me. Don't even get me started on wood trim in a Land Cruiser. I'll be sticking with my old trucks as long as possible.
So, a mixed record at best for Land Rover.
Regarding Toyota, my 87 FJ60 has been a fantastic vehicle from new. It has never broken down on me and the only recurring issue has been with the choke cable binding. However, that issue has never stranded me. I've driven this thing from AK to Utah, South Carolina, Maine, Minnesota, etc multiple times. No mechanical issues. Zero. It is now 26 years old. My 94 4Runner - no real issues mechanically since new (replaced the RR Hunter). Had to replace the head gasket at 125k. The front hubs squeal something fierce at -40 F (have since new) but are fine when they warm up. Some rust along the glass on the tailgate. No other issues. 98 FJ100. Perfect for 272k miles, including many offroading trips to Utah, traveling the Alaska Highway, the Dalton and Dempster, Mexico, and Central America. Zero issues except I had to replace the key as I had worn it out.
Bottom line - I have never had a single issue resulting in a mechanical breakdown with one of my Toyotas. I would drive any of them from Cleveland to Alaska and back tomorrow with no fears. And the newest one is 15 years old. I absolutely cannot say the same thing about my Disco, although I love it just the same.
Now, you will notice that I do not have a Toyota newer than 1998. Although the new ones are nice (especially the FJ200) they seem a little too feature rich for me. And the interior plastic is a bit too much for me. Don't even get me started on wood trim in a Land Cruiser. I'll be sticking with my old trucks as long as possible.
David Harris
Expedition Leader
Exactly my point. When Toyota owners talk about their vehicle choice, they cite mechanical reliability, while at the same time saying how they LOVE the Land Rover. . .
Let me try again... what would happen to those yotas is you never tune them up, never change the timing belt
You say no mechanical issues, but then state a head gasket.... what else are you missing?
I know I've had friends with yotas that have done H.G., Engines, Timing Belts and I am relatively certain I remember water pumps and altenators, but its been a while
I am just not bought into the fact they they are so uber reliable that they justify the insane prices.
As a matter of fact I looked at a couple Yota recently that did not have the original engine in them.
As I said, they are pricey and will be pricey to keep pristine. Used LR especially com a a small fraction of the price. I've driven my LR CA to CO quite a few times, no problems and most was not on highway and much off pavement.
You say no mechanical issues, but then state a head gasket.... what else are you missing?
I know I've had friends with yotas that have done H.G., Engines, Timing Belts and I am relatively certain I remember water pumps and altenators, but its been a while
I am just not bought into the fact they they are so uber reliable that they justify the insane prices.
As a matter of fact I looked at a couple Yota recently that did not have the original engine in them.
As I said, they are pricey and will be pricey to keep pristine. Used LR especially com a a small fraction of the price. I've driven my LR CA to CO quite a few times, no problems and most was not on highway and much off pavement.
Sounds like your luck has been better than mine with Land Rover products. I love them (I also love my Land Cruiser) but haven't been well treated long term. That being said, I know how to rebuild most of the parts in a Series vehicle, weld frames, etc which I never would have learned without owning a Land Rover.
Toyota water pumps and timing belts are like brakes - normal service items. The head gasket was a known issue from new and was scheduled to be replaced at 125k. They don't leave you on the side of the road because you replace them on a known schedule. Toyotas are only expensive when you buy the vehicle (and I mean used, since LR products are expensive new). Long term, all the parts and service you don't have to pay for makes up the difference so you can get a cheap Disco or RR and spend money to fix it or a 4Runner or Land Cruiser and just drive it.
Land Rovers are great but you may need to keep a flat bed around to get them home after something critical (but never a normal service item) breaks. They are great to drive when they work but, unfortunately, in my experience as they age they are not reliable enough long term to take on long trips. Crazy, major assembly pieces coming apart while driving down the road is a big issue for me, especially when it may take weeks to get a replacement (unless I take a parts store worth of spares with me on my trip). My experience is that I could take my Disco just about anywhere when it was new. Past 75k it started to get a little dodgy. Now it's for local work only.
Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.
Toyota water pumps and timing belts are like brakes - normal service items. The head gasket was a known issue from new and was scheduled to be replaced at 125k. They don't leave you on the side of the road because you replace them on a known schedule. Toyotas are only expensive when you buy the vehicle (and I mean used, since LR products are expensive new). Long term, all the parts and service you don't have to pay for makes up the difference so you can get a cheap Disco or RR and spend money to fix it or a 4Runner or Land Cruiser and just drive it.
Land Rovers are great but you may need to keep a flat bed around to get them home after something critical (but never a normal service item) breaks. They are great to drive when they work but, unfortunately, in my experience as they age they are not reliable enough long term to take on long trips. Crazy, major assembly pieces coming apart while driving down the road is a big issue for me, especially when it may take weeks to get a replacement (unless I take a parts store worth of spares with me on my trip). My experience is that I could take my Disco just about anywhere when it was new. Past 75k it started to get a little dodgy. Now it's for local work only.
Just my experience. Your mileage may vary.
REDrum
Aventurero de la Selva
Please don't take this as an argument, rather just discussive.
To the contrary, my point about resale of FZJs in the rest of the world (ROW) was that the market has justified their high price by demand for them. In everywhere BUT the US resale on FZJs is high, very high, right up there with Mercedes. And the reason for that is, the cost of everything automotive out side the US is very high, as measured as % of average income, (even more so in developing countries), and people just don't have the money for incessant repairs/corrective maintenance. Thus, a simple economic supply/demand curve for Toyota trucks vs LR trucks exists. In central america, for any given model year, a LR truck will sell for about half what a same year Toyota truck will sell for (and a similar economic propensity exists for US pick up too).
I do love LR trucks, I've been around them my whole life, my Father was a LR dealer when I was a kid. But, I respect their strengths and know their weaknesses. I bought a 94 FZJ80 for $3K, put $10K into it and drove it all over New England, to Fla, and from Belize to Costa Rica--worry free. (and I have 3 costa ricans in line to buy it for $20K, but its not for sale now) There is no way I would have considered doing that trip with LR truck near 20 years old.
I adore the nostalgia of LR trucks, but also cherish the peace of mind that comes from reliability with Toyota. I suppose my perspective on LR may be a bit skewed when my father's favorite joke was: "why do the British like warm beer?.......because all their refrigerators were made by Lucas..."
David Harris
Expedition Leader
You may not, but plenty of people have and will continue to do so, especially after putting 10K into it before hand. . . .
What crazy major assembly just came apart? Are you sure it was well maintained?
Go look at what people want for an '00 - '04 Taco.
I don't love any vehicle. At this point the nostalgia no longer impresses me. I am partial to LR since I can do some of the work on them myself, have trusty mechanic for things that I do no do and lastly they aer as reliable as any well maintained vehicle.
I think also that you are trying to imply that LR and Yota are significant price difference and at least for the high end Tacos and Cruisers, they compete price wise very well. Price wise the L.C. pretty much takes on the Range Rover, while lower end models were much cheaper. When I made the mistake of buying my Disco new in '95, the Land Cruiser I looked at was 20k more. 33k and 53k.
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back to the topic.
If you are looking at getting a '93 model SUV, I would recommend you have a mechanic that is expert in the vehicle you are buying look over it with a fine tooth comb. Spend the money on doing this. Determine what it takes to fix everything required -- on your candidate vehicles. Then make a financial decision and weigh this with what vehicle you want. All this will impact your offer.
On a '93 vehicle, anything that is still original is likely going to be need repair and I don't really care what vehicle it is or how low mileage it is at this point it's 20 years old.
EDIT:
Also on my '93 LWB, it was in good shape. There were signs that it had a cracked cylinder (not rare, but not common). You can test for exhaust in coolant and the price reflected a perfect interior/body but broken engine.
I drove it for 3 years like this before I did not wish to risk it and replaced with about 80k engine at about 160k). Also did radiator and heater core at the same time.
I did a bunch of preventative maintenance as well and whittle away at it. I've had it about 7 years now and overall I think I have put in about 1,000 per year in maintenance, INCLUDING the engine and heater core. If you subtract the engine it'd likely be about 500/year. I think it sees about 10,000 miles per year.
So, no argument in this. Just some rough numbers. Still starts when it's 20 below, but oil pressure takes a few seconds to build up.
If you are looking at getting a '93 model SUV, I would recommend you have a mechanic that is expert in the vehicle you are buying look over it with a fine tooth comb. Spend the money on doing this. Determine what it takes to fix everything required -- on your candidate vehicles. Then make a financial decision and weigh this with what vehicle you want. All this will impact your offer.
On a '93 vehicle, anything that is still original is likely going to be need repair and I don't really care what vehicle it is or how low mileage it is at this point it's 20 years old.
EDIT:
Also on my '93 LWB, it was in good shape. There were signs that it had a cracked cylinder (not rare, but not common). You can test for exhaust in coolant and the price reflected a perfect interior/body but broken engine.
I drove it for 3 years like this before I did not wish to risk it and replaced with about 80k engine at about 160k). Also did radiator and heater core at the same time.
I did a bunch of preventative maintenance as well and whittle away at it. I've had it about 7 years now and overall I think I have put in about 1,000 per year in maintenance, INCLUDING the engine and heater core. If you subtract the engine it'd likely be about 500/year. I think it sees about 10,000 miles per year.
So, no argument in this. Just some rough numbers. Still starts when it's 20 below, but oil pressure takes a few seconds to build up.
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David Harris
Expedition Leader
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