2015/2016 New 3rd gen Tacoma Debut in Detriot

[Dances with Wolves]

But your comparing the F150 to the Tacoma, apples and oranges. Where is Ford's orange, the Ranger? Oh yeah, it's in Europe. I think the short answer to why Toyota isn't going diesel or turbo or significantly increasing MPGs is they don't have to. They sell plenty of Tacomas, around 50% of the US market, with a 10 year old design. Their only competition right now is the Frontier and the GM twins and I don't see either of them gaining too much traction in the near future. All in, the mid size market is only about 300K units/year so it's not that large in the grand scheme of things and it's never going to increase too much. The other side of it is price point. It's not too much more and your into full size truck money.

 

[toylandcruiser]

A lot of those videos you posted, had nothing to do with fuel economy, so I'm not sure how they are relevant. The EPA is usually fairly accurate when it comes to rating the mpg of modern day vehicles. To be off by 7-8mpg (if we're going to assume that real mpg avg is 13mpg) is a little hard for anyone to believe.

Listen, to avoid any potential flame war on this issue, I'm not a Ford fan, I don't own any Ford vehicles. But Ford is making an attempt to innovate with its engines, whereas Toyota is insisting on using tried, but aged, technology. Turbo-charging, whether it be in a gas or diesel engine, is the way of the future, and while many truck makers have jumped on board, Toyota is still using naturally aspirated...just saying it would be nice if Toyota followed suit.

I didn't say all of them were about mpg. But two of them did. Real world results are not saying the same as what the epa is saying. I posted the videos to show what those innovated engines are doing. They are far from amazing engines. Lots and lots of issues with them.


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[Dalko43]

But your comparing the F150 to the Tacoma, apples and oranges. Where is Ford's orange, the Ranger? Oh yeah, it's in Europe. I think the short answer to why Toyota isn't going diesel or turbo or significantly increasing MPGs is they don't have to. They sell plenty of Tacomas, around 50% of the US market, with a 10 year old design. Their only competition right now is the Frontier and the GM twins and I don't see either of them gaining too much traction in the near future. All in, the mid size market is only about 300K units/year so it's not that large in the grand scheme of things and it's never going to increase too much. The other side of it is price point. It's not too much more and your into full size truck money.

That part in bold is exactly why Toyota feels comfortable rolling out a 3.5L NA engine for the new Tacoma...its not because Toyota thinks this engine is the way of the future, its because Toyota thinks they can save on R&D costs and get away with this kind of product.

And yes, I agree comparing a F-150 to a Tacoma is apples to oranges...I was more focused on comparing the engines, but in general you are correct.

I didn't say all of them were about mpg. But two of them did. Real world results are not saying the same as what the epa is saying. I posted the videos to show what those innovated engines are doing. They are far from amazing engines. Lots and lots of issues with them.

I'm not disputing that Ford's engines are having teething problems. Like I said, I have no special love for Ford. But their engine designs are new and cutting edge....it may take a few years for them to work the kinks out, but that pretty much is par for the course with any new engine design. By comparison, Toyota's NA engines for the Tacoma and 4runner and FJ have been around (in one form or another) for at least 10 years (more if you consider the predecessor engines they evolved from). That's one reason why Toyota's reliability is so much better than a lot of of other car makers...when you keep using the same design over and over again, you're going to weed out a lot of the reliability and failure issues. If Toyota would try to innovate as well and put out turbo engines, I'm sure they would reinvigorate their customer base...but right now it seems they are more focused on saving money, so they'll stick with what they know...a business tactic that I believe will back-fire, but we'll have to see how the new Tacomas sell (honestly I don't think they offer enough over the previous gen Tacoma for people to go out and buy them new).

As for fuel economy for the F-150, I'd say its a mixed bag...some are getting close to the EPA ratings and others are getting worse. It sounds like some of that has to do with driving style, and some of it may have to with engine break-in:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1045979-real-world-mpg-in-ecoboost-4x4-14.html

 

[moonshiner]

But their engine designs are new and cutting edge....

Umm...I not sure what you mean by "new and cutting edge", but gasoline direct injection and turbocharging is not new. In fact, both are nearly as old as the internal combustion engine. Neither technology is new to Toyota either. Toyota has had gas engines in production with direct injection since at least 1998, well before Ford. And their D4-S system (in production since 2005) is now being copied by VW after grappling with carbon buildup in their DI engines for years. And Ford will also be coping Toyota's system in their next generation ecoboost engines. Hmm...I wonder why? Yeah...Ford's engines are cutting edge indeed.

 

[east_tn_81]

Where do you get your info?

 

[bkg]

Umm...I not sure what you mean by "new and cutting edge", but gasoline direct injection and turbocharging is not new. In fact, both are nearly as old as the internal combustion engine. Neither technology is new to Toyota either. Toyota has had gas engines in production with direct injection since at least 1998, well before Ford. And their D4-S system (in production since 2005) is now being copied by VW after grappling with carbon buildup in their DI engines for years. And Ford will also be coping Toyota's system in their next generation ecoboost engines. Hmm...I wonder why? Yeah...Ford's engines are cutting edge indeed.

you're comparing apples to oranges... Compare engine technology across fullsized truck segment and tell me who has more "cutting edge" technologies...

 

[moonshiner]

Where do you get your info?

About Ford using dual injection like Toyota? Directly from Ford.
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...rd-redefines-innovation-with-gt-supercar.html

Road and Track also have an article about it.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ecoboost-v6-from-ford-performanceits-all-new/

Here's the info for VW directly from VW.
http://media.vw.com/release/885/

 

[moonshiner]

you're comparing apples to oranges... Compare engine technology across fullsized truck segment and tell me who has more "cutting edge" technologies...

What "cutting edge" technology are you referring to, why don't you tell me? Turbocharging? Direct injection? Those are old tech. Like early 1900's tech. A lot of these "new" tech you see today are not really new at all. They are just now going into production mainly because of much more advance computing power. Variable valve timing? Old. Cylinder deactivation? Old. Atkinson cycle? Old. All those old timer engineers knew about all this stuff long ago because they're fundamentals of heat engines. They just couldn't implement them very well without advance electronic control.

 

[bkg]

What "cutting edge" technology are you referring to, why don't you tell me? Turbocharging? Direct injection? Those are old tech. Like early 1900's tech. A lot of these "new" tech you see today are not really new at all. They are just now going into production mainly because of much more advance computing power. Variable valve timing? Old. Cylinder deactivation? Old. Atkinson cycle? Old. All those old timer engineers knew about all this stuff long ago because they're fundamentals of heat engines. They just couldn't implement them very well without advance electronic control.

Compare the technology in the F150 to the technology in the Tundra. If you think Toyota is keeping up - or advancing in any way - you're not being honest.

 

[moonshiner]

Compare the technology in the F150 to the technology in the Tundra. If you think Toyota is keeping up - or advancing in any way - you're not being honest.

Why don't you provide an example then instead of repeating yourself?

 

[toylandcruiser]

Why don't you provide an example then instead of repeating yourself?

You have to understand this guy. He never has anything good to say about the Tacoma, but he owns one. He trash talk the tundra for a couple years, then went out and bought one. His biggest gripes with his tundra is some whiny thing about the stereo and a whistle coming from the engine. So now in his mind any Toyota made in America is garbage (but he owns two buy choice not force). I really think their is no way of having an intelligent conversation with him. At least he stopped crying about the frame design Toyota is purposely choosing over the competition.


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[calicamper]

I'm not sure its even possible for Toyota to invest as much money into the midsized Tacoma compared to any full sized high profit truck like the F150. I'm not a Ford fan at all but I just bought a Ford Product for my wife and I must say the amount of money Ford is dumping into developing pretty advanced stuff is mind numbing. Toyota putting a engine in the Tacoma thats using tech they have used in other vehicles for several years already isn't really keeping up, Adding weight vs shedding weight isn't really keeping up either.

I own a Toyota and to be strait up Toyota trucks make very slow progress in getting modern tech, not a bad thing but when the big guns make pretty big leaps forward it tends to leave Toyota that much behind. It sounds like Ford will probably have a 10speed AT in the F150 in a year or so. Whats Toyota using and what do they plan on using? 6spd? I don't know if a 10spd is going to be a good or bad thing but there is no way Toyota has the money or profit off the Tacoma and Tundra to do what Dodge, Ford and GM are doing with their crazy high profit full sized trucks. They make a massive killing on those things compared to what Toyota Makes on their trucks. That translates to development money put back into it also.

 

[east_tn_81]

About Ford using dual injection like Toyota? Directly from Ford.
https://media.ford.com/content/ford...rd-redefines-innovation-with-gt-supercar.html

Road and Track also have an article about it.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-sho...ecoboost-v6-from-ford-performanceits-all-new/

Here's the info for VW directly from VW.
http://media.vw.com/release/885/

I read those articles but there is nothing in there about copying any ones design or even setting up the engines in the same manner. I think all car designers and developers take bits and pieces from each other and develop in a way that works for them.

 

[bkg]

Why don't you provide an example then instead of repeating yourself?

ecoboost, aluminum body and much better electronics (including integrated brake controller) are a few examples when you compare full size truck to full size truck.

To say Toyota is farther advanced that Ford simply isn't the case. One could make a similar argument about the Dodge (diesel, 8/9 speed transmisions, 5-link rear). Toyota isn't "leading" at this point.

Does it mean the Toyota is bad? No. But let's at least be honest when making comparisons re: who is using more "advanced" technologies.

EDIT: You are correct in that none of those technologies are exactly "new," sans perhaps the 8/9 speed trannies from Dodge. But they ARE "new" in the full size truck segment.

 

[bkg]

You have to understand this guy. He never has anything good to say about the Tacoma, but he owns one. He trash talk the tundra for a couple years, then went out and bought one. His biggest gripes with his tundra is some whiny thing about the stereo and a whistle coming from the engine. So now in his mind any Toyota made in America is garbage (but he owns two buy choice not force). I really think their is no way of having an intelligent conversation with him. At least he stopped crying about the frame design Toyota is purposely choosing over the competition.

Interesting you say that. I've never said Tacomas are garbage - you'll hve to find a quote for that. But I am NOT a Toyota Fanboy who cannot acknowledge where Toyota is leaving the community behind. I choose to drive a Toyota but I acknowledge it's flaws. Some of y'all don't like to hear that Toyota has flaws - that's just not honest.

And yeah - the Tundra has been into the shop 4 Times for issues that should not exist in a $40K truck (and it's a common issue, which you have actually researched yourself, PM'd me links to potential solutions, yet seem to continue to deny that it exists?????) Not sure why you have such an issue with someone trying to find a solution (Dealer does have part, BTW, thank you.)

BTW - I own 4 Toyotas currently.