Alternative Fuels & Better Fuel Mileage

[Code Monkey]

Burning oils of any kind usually requires heat because they are thicker than diesel fuel (more viscous) and will not atomize well at low temperatures. Waste motor oil, waste automatic transmission fluid, gear oils, etc...are all too thick without first being heated. Also, waste oils must be well filtered (its going to take more than a paint strainer) so as to avoid engine problems.

Just a note of caution: there is more than particulate matter in waste oil of any kind, there is unburnt fuel (including gasoline) and other chemical contamination that can't be simply filtered out because it is not a particulate.

As mentioned, maybe a centrifuge would work, but then won't you have different levels of lighter and heavier liquids? How do you use them separately?

 

[Code Monkey]

Obviously a two tank system eliminates the problem of SVO solidifying as the waste heat from the engine coolant provides more than enough BTUs in pretty much any temperature to heat it enough for use as fuel, but transferring fuel could still be an issue. I use a hand pump to transfer SVO from a barrel into my 60 gallon fuel tank, but I realize that would probably be difficult if not impossible in -10 degree F temperatures. I wonder if a 75/25 or 50/50 SVO/winterized diesel mix would help? Come to think of it I've heard of folks collecting oil from dumpsters in sub-zero temperatures using cheap gas powered pumps from Harbor Freight-apparently they'll move oil so thick that it extrudes out the end of the hose. Perhaps one of those mounted on top of a drum would be a solution?

I would think the SVO would settle in the storage tank to the bottom, quite possibly gel there in cold temps.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Just a note of caution: there is more than particulate matter in waste oil of any kind, there is unburnt fuel (including gasoline) and other chemical contamination that can't be simply filtered out because it is not a particulate.

That's one of the many reasons why I don't burn waste motor oil. I'm just saying that if you're going to do it, it needs to be heated.

As mentioned, maybe a centrifuge would work, but then won't you have different levels of lighter and heavier liquids? How do you use them separately?

A centrifuge, or at least the kind I use, is not going to separate heavier and lighter liquids. My centrifuge merely removes solids-it only removes water because I heat the oil to 160 degrees during centrifuging. The high temperature coupled with the pressure change when the oil leaves the jets of the centrifuge the water flashes off as vapor.

I would think the SVO would settle in the storage tank to the bottom, quite possibly gel there in cold temps.

Sure, but if you had a strong enough gear pump it would move it. Again, the key is having enough heat to liquefy the fuel and bring it up to temperature. With the Vegistroke system you could pack the tank with Crisco in subzero temperatures, but once the system was up to operating temperature you'd have usable fuel.

 

[addicted56]

I have a 1997 F-250 PSD and I put a WVO setup in it back in 2005. I have yet to run it in the last year due to lack of WVO supplier here. Sadly I move every two+ years in the Army and it is not easy to bring all of that equipment with you. Not to mention the renters and neighbors think you are running a meth lab. Seting up a new filtering station can be expensive, space, and time consuming. If you plan on living in your place for a long time there are some very slick setups that make the process very automated and "CLEAN". Do it right the first time or don't do it at all.

There are so many options when putting a system together it can get overwhelming deciding on which direction to go. The only advice I can give that you probably don't have already is redundancy, redundancy, redundancy. I am a helicopter pilot and I like redundancy and maintenance. I am very comfortable with my system but it still has flaws. Especially in the switch over of fuels. Even with 50+K miles on WVO I would be very leary to travel to far off of the beaten path with nothing but WVO. In a climate where it would get below the 40's I would not even consider it.

I run a plantdrive (used to be neoteric I beleive) system. I have two stock tanks I run diesel in and a 50 gallon bed tank with tool box. The vormax has its flaws (mainly being able to clean out the prefilter bowl if contaminates settle) and the time it takes to get WVO/Diesel to the injectors when switching over on the PSD is laughable. They have ways around this now and I hear they work well.

I've never done an oil anylisis (will soon) but I've visually found evidence of WVO oil in my motor oil. Thus I changed it every 4K when I probably could have gone longer.

If you are running a lot of weight or pulling a trailer I noticed a significant reduction in power when running WVO. I would put it at around 15-20% reduction by my seat of the pants dyno.

The way I look at it is, if you have more time than money go WVO, if you have more money than time spend it on diesel, as it is a good deal if you can afford it. When diesel was $5 a gallon and I was driving 50 miles a day in my 15 MPG truck I was sure loving it though.

My brother runs used motor oil and has been having luck so far, I think I might be trying that here in the next couple weeks as fuel just jumped over the 3.50 a gallon mark...that is when it starts to hurt my pocket book.

As regards to it being good for the earth and all that crap I just have to laugh. When the CH-47 flying next to me is burning 370 GPH and burns more in preflight than you do in an average week of driving in your gas sucking overly laden pig there is just no economy of scale. Whey we focus so much on vehicles I have no idea. If you have not seen a helicopter startup and the smoke and oil they leak then you probably don't get it. A loaded 747 burns 1 gallon of fuel every second during take off and I don't think they have EGRs or DPFs. My buddies 6.4L PSD was getting around 10MPG before he gutted all of the (earth saving) equipment and now he is in the low 20's. And his exhuast is still cleaner than my 1997. So tell me is buying and burning twice the fuel really better in the full spectrum fuel arena?

 

[IHDiesel73L]

I have a 1997 F-250 PSD and I put a WVO setup in it back in 2005. I have yet to run it in the last year due to lack of WVO supplier here. Sadly I move every two+ years in the Army and it is not easy to bring all of that equipment with you. Not to mention the renters and neighbors think you are running a meth lab. Seting up a new filtering station can be expensive, space, and time consuming. If you plan on living in your place for a long time there are some very slick setups that make the process very automated and "CLEAN". Do it right the first time or don't do it at all.

There are so many options when putting a system together it can get overwhelming deciding on which direction to go. The only advice I can give that you probably don't have already is redundancy, redundancy, redundancy. I am a helicopter pilot and I like redundancy and maintenance. I am very comfortable with my system but it still has flaws. Especially in the switch over of fuels. Even with 50+K miles on WVO I would be very leary to travel to far off of the beaten path with nothing but WVO. In a climate where it would get below the 40's I would not even consider it.

In terms of redundancy the Vegistroke system is it. Instead of modifying the existing fuel system they simply manufactured a completely parallel fuel system. In this way if the Vegistroke fails, a hose leaks, you run out of WVO, etc...you simply switch to diesel and get on your way. If I were really going out into the bush I'd carry at least 35 gallons of diesel fuel with me in order to be able to refuel the main tank along with however much WVO I was planning on carrying. Again, with a proper pump, transfer shouldn't be an issue.

I run a plantdrive (used to be neoteric I beleive) system. I have two stock tanks I run diesel in and a 50 gallon bed tank with tool box. The vormax has its flaws (mainly being able to clean out the prefilter bowl if contaminates settle) and the time it takes to get WVO/Diesel to the injectors when switching over on the PSD is laughable. They have ways around this now and I hear they work well.

I've never done an oil anylisis (will soon) but I've visually found evidence of WVO oil in my motor oil. Thus I changed it every 4K when I probably could have gone longer.

Depending on what you mean, visual evidence is bad (globs of polymerized WVO, etc...)-I've never had visual evidence of WVO in my oil and I change every 5K.

IIf you are running a lot of weight or pulling a trailer I noticed a significant reduction in power when running WVO. I would put it at around 15-20% reduction by my seat of the pants dyno.

That's not surprising. I can't remember the exact figures but pretty much every type of WVO has less BTUs than diesel.

 

[addicted56]

I spent about 1500 building my first system including the tank and everything included. 3K is steep but so is the price of fuel. So if you can afford the upfront cost I really like the idea of the vegistroke as well. I wonder how long it takes to purge the system with their setup? Mine currently takes about 10 mintues to fully do it. About 5 mintues in order to still start it up in the morning.

No actual globs but the first 2 seconds of draining the oil is much thicker.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

I spent about 1500 building my first system including the tank and everything included. 3K is steep but so is the price of fuel. So if you can afford the upfront cost I really like the idea of the vegistroke as well. I wonder how long it takes to purge the system with their setup? Mine currently takes about 10 mintues to fully do it. About 5 mintues in order to still start it up in the morning.

The V3 purges in 90 seconds via a timer that starts when the key is removed from the ignition, so I walk away from the truck while its still running and it shuts down on its own. The initial cost of the V3 put me off at first too, but since installing it I've burned about 3000 gallons of vegetable oil. If you figure an average price of $3.00 a gallon for fuel between all of it's crazy ups and downs since 2008, that works out to $9000-well worth the up front cost.

 

[addicted56]

The V3 purges in 90 seconds via a timer that starts when the key is removed from the ignition, so I walk away from the truck while its still running and it shuts down on its own. The initial cost of the V3 put me off at first too, but since installing it I've burned about 3000 gallons of vegetable oil. If you figure an average price of $3.00 a gallon for fuel between all of it's crazy ups and downs since 2008, that works out to $9000-well worth the up front cost.

Very true. Not to mention you get a built in turbo timer as well. Not saying it is a turbo timer, but vary rarely does it take more than 90 seconds after comming to idle to get below 300 on the EGT gauge.

 

[Code Monkey]

Could you not just anticipate when you are going to stop the truck as you approach your destination and switch over then?

Unless you are doing a lot of short trips running errands, in which case you could just run diesel, then you would know when you are getting close and switch over as you approach.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Could you not just anticipate when you are going to stop the truck as you approach your destination and switch over then?

Unless you are doing a lot of short trips running errands, in which case you could just run diesel, then you would know when you are getting close and switch over as you approach.

You can and many people do, but you can also forget if you're in a hurry, preoccupied, etc...plus I can let anyone (including my wife) drive my truck and not worry about it or even have to tell them that the truck has been modified. I do get funny looks walking away from the truck while it's still running though.

 

[Code Monkey]

You can and many people do, but you can also forget if you're in a hurry, preoccupied, etc...plus I can let anyone (including my wife) drive my truck and not worry about it or even have to tell them that the truck has been modified. I do get funny looks walking away from the truck while it's still running though.

I would imagine the system would/could know which mode it was in and how long it had been there and then would/could shutoff immediately or keep running as needed.

 

[lam396]

IHDiesel73L- can you give some info on your centirfuge setup? I am vvery interested in a wvo setup. Also, where are you getting your oil, restaurants?

I dont currently have a diesel but I have been on the look out for a 7.3L SD. In the future I will driving roughly 100 miles round trip to work due to living in the country and working at a downtown location so saving $$ on fuel is how I'm justifying a diesel.

 

[Darwin]

expect to spend around $1500 for a centrifuge, $3000 or more for a "vegistroke" kit, and some on a pump used to collect the oil. If you are in a cold climate you will need a pump capable of pumping thick sludge. It get's expensive and dirty. Personally unless you are dead set on getting a crew cab I think the 12 valve dodges make for a much more reliable conversion.

 

[addicted56]

expect to spend around $1500 for a centrifuge, $3000 or more for a "vegistroke" kit, and some on a pump used to collect the oil. If you are in a cold climate you will need a pump capable of pumping thick sludge. It get's expensive and dirty. Personally unless you are dead set on getting a crew cab I think the 12 valve dodges make for a much more reliable conversion.

I think there is no difference regarding engine. My brothers cummins didn't like it while both our psd engines do. That said I think he had fuel delivery issues in his cummins so unfair comparison.

I manually switch my fuels and in 5 years have only forgotten twice and I daily drive it. Both times it was within a couple hours of shutdown and the engine was still warm so no real problem. Sounded like a heavily stroked gasser for about 5 seconds until all cylinders started firing correctly though.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

expect to spend around $1500 for a centrifuge, $3000 or more for a "vegistroke" kit, and some on a pump used to collect the oil. If you are in a cold climate you will need a pump capable of pumping thick sludge. It get's expensive and dirty. Personally unless you are dead set on getting a crew cab I think the 12 valve dodges make for a much more reliable conversion.

$3000 is about right for the Vegistroke in it's current form with a tank-I think I might have paid a little less but that was almost three years ago. As far as a filtration setup centrifuges run the gamut, but I think the $1500 number is right either way. I have a Dieselcraft which is a small unit that runs on oil pressure (you pump oil under pressure into it which propels the rotor) that goes for about $400, but then you need a proper pump (precise flowrate and pressure are very important-I use a hydraulic pump), a motor to drive that pump, a device to heat the oil to 140-160 degrees to thin it out enough/drive the water out, etc... A lot of the cost of this will depend on your level of resourcefulness and ability to fabricate things yourself. As for the other type of centrifuge (the "bowl" type) they simply pump hot oil into a bowl that is spun by a motor-they cost about $1500 for a cheap model and then you still have to find a way to move the oil, heat it, etc...I'm not saying one or the other is better, it's just whatever you end up going with. I am working on posting a thread on my own "filtration station" with pictures and part numbers. I have probably spent close to $1500 on it over the three years or so I've been doing this, but again, depending on your level of resourcefulness you can lessen that cost. As for Dodges being more reliable, that maybe true overall, but I haven't seen a conversion for the Cummins that is as well made and thought out as the Vegistroke. Powerstrokes have their quirks, but (7.3Ls especially) as long as they're well taken care of will last a long time. However, a poor conversion kit can kill even the most robust diesel engine in relatively short period of time.

IHDiesel73L- can you give some info on your centirfuge setup? I am vvery interested in a wvo setup. Also, where are you getting your oil, restaurants?

As I said I hope to have a post up here soon on the filtration setup. I do get my WVO from restaurants, but it's getting tough out there and as the price of fuel goes up, it will get tougher. As diesel gets more expensive, biodfuels become more relevant, and large rendering companies (and small startups) get more aggressive. I am lucky as I found small restaurants in an urban area that not only don't really produce enough oil per week to interest the big rendering outfits, they are also in tight quarters (no alleyways, etc...) so they physically don't have a place to put a grease dumpster. I pick up the oil in the containers it comes in (4.5 gallon jugs)-they drain it from the fryers back into the empties. I did loose one source to a company that is now paying for used oil (they produce biofuel for home heating).

I dont currently have a diesel but I have been on the look out for a 7.3L SD. In the future I will driving roughly 100 miles round trip to work due to living in the country and working at a downtown location so saving $$ on fuel is how I'm justifying a diesel.

I commute 80 miles a day roundtrip and have a similar situation. We also heat our home primarily with wood (the oil furnace is basically a backup during extended absences) that I source myself from basically anywhere I can find trees being cut. I actually scored 3+ cords this year from a neighbor of my parents who was putting an addition on and had to a lot of trees from their lot. My parents live about 50 miles away so making enough trips to cart that much wood (it was about 11 or 12) would have been a net loss running on diesel fuel. We also tend to use my truck as our primary vehicle on the weekends when visiting family or taking day trips. My wife only uses her econobox to commute to her job 3 miles away during the week.