AWD wagons: Help me make a decision

[??????? Kilkelly]

Hi everyone. I'm polling your collective intelligence, largely because I've been following this site for about 2 years without posting, and now have a reason to post something. I'm looking for a car. Not just any car, a decent one that I can take through the back woods of Quebec, the rest of Canada, and as far north or south as I can get. Here's the catch: It has to be a station wagon or a hatchback. Simply because it's going to double as the family car. I'm pretty sure a couple of you already think I'm crazy, but here's the reasoning: Neither of the two of us drive to work, and we live in the middle of Montreal, which has a kickass public transit system, is bike and pedestrian friendly, and isn't very car friendly (at least where we are). The plan is that this wagon will be used for mostly highway, with at least some dirt and unimproved roads... no real offroading, but probably a little "forest roading" around areas like La Tuque. I also need to stay under $10,000 CDN... and it needs to have 4 doors, since we have a soon-to-be 6 year old who still uses a car seat (she's pretty small, but not that small). The reason I'm avoiding trucks and jeep-like things is that it's going to spend at least as much time on the highway as it does on any other surface, and while being able to park in a snowbank is necessary, I'm not planning on driving anything more technical than fire roads.

At the moment, I'm favouring Subarus (specifically the 2005 OB and Fozzies, ideally turbo or the H6), but there are quite a few Audi Allroads available in the price range I'm looking at. They look pretty solid, if somewhat complex and costly to maintain. Other options are welcome, and if Bill's Superu is still for sale, I'd love to find out if I can import it.

 

[FurthurOnTheFly]

We had an Allroad with the airbag suspension. It was expensive to maintain (as any German car is) and it sucked gas like it was free, but I still miss that car. Every time I see one on the road I shed a tear. It looked good, it was fun to drive and comfortable for travel.

We have also had a WRX wagon, though that was much more of a toy. We did take it camping once. :smiley_drive:

The sensible part of me says to direct you to the Subaru's especially if this is going to be a used car with no warranty for a family. The Audi's are beautiful, but expensive to fix and the first time one of your kids rips something apart in that fantastic interior you'll be tempted to leave them behind at the next rest stop...at least I would!

 

[??????? Kilkelly]

Thanks, Heidi! I tried an '05 xt a little while ago, and the steering felt a little dead. Not as bad as the Volvos I've tested this week, but it wasn't making me want to buy it, either. The A4 and A6 that I tried in the weeks before, though... I'm hooked. Unfortunately, you're echoing the same thing everyone has told me (mostly people who haven't ever owned one of these cars)- "Audis cost more to repair".. so my question is, how often is it going to end up in the shop on average? As often as a Subaru? More often? Obviously, this depends on who is driving it, but I'm looking for a general idea.

 

[Route55]

For what you describe, an AWD car "sounds" O.K., but in my opinion is kind of like taking a knife to a gun fight. The biggest problem you will have with the use of an AWD car off road is ground clearance. Also, cars rarely have a low range transfer case, and some like the Subaru can be very finnicky in less than flat circumstances.

I know you said you are avoiding "jeep" things, but the first thing that came to my mind for you was an XJ Cherokee in stock form. Really they aren't much higher than a car, do everything you want, and can be had for a reasonable price. They also take up less space than many cars, and have a great turning radius. Driving one in the city can be very comfortable. Manual trans versions with stock tires get about 25 MPG, Automatics about 20 MPG. They are super reliable in 1994-01 form, cheap to fix, and many crest 300,000 miles on the stock 4.0 engine.

Any case, welcome to the group! There are alot of great folks here, and I think you will like it.

 

[Skidmarkart]

I have owed Volvo V70XC, Audi A4 Avant, and several Subarus (Legacy GT sedan, Legacy Outback and currently Legacy "Anniversary"). I loved the Euro cars, but there is no contest between maintenance. The Subaru, if well maintained, will run a 100,000 with one brake change, one tire change, and several oil changes. The others, while I love their design and inspired driving, there's absolutely no contest in the $$$ you will spend keeping the cars in top shape.

They question I asked myself was do you want to drive, travel, and spend your money on experience or repair? This is why I drive a Montero and not the Range Rover I used to have!

Oh yeah - I average 28mpg in the Subaru. The Volvo 20mpg. Audi 22mpg.

 

[haven]

In addition to Audi A4 and Subaru, here are AWD wagons that can be found for less than $10,000, in USA at least.

VW Passat
Audi A6
Volvo V50, V70, XC70
Chrysler Pacifica
Mercedes 300TE, C240, E320
Ford Freestyle
BMW 325 xi

Car-like unibody SUVs in this price range include

Acura MDX
Honda CR-V, Pilot, Element
BMW X5
Ford Escape
Hyundai Santa Fe
Kia Sorento
Saturn Vue
Lexus RX300
Mercedes ML320, ML350, ML430, ML500
Suzuki Grand Vitara, XL-7
Toyota Rav4, Highlander
VW Touareg

 

[Martinjmpr]

I'll echo the Subaru. I had a 99 Outback Wagon and it was great. I dodged the head gasket bullet that the early 2.5's are known for but in your price range you should be able to get an 04-up which AFAIK had no HG problems.

I personally don't care for the 3rd gen legacy body style (that's the 2000 - 2004 model) and absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE the 4th gen (2005 - 2009) body style. Just FYI you will find the Outback more "loaded" with features, while the Forester is more "stripped down" in terms of things like fog lights, leather, sunroof, alloy wheels, etc.

Having said, that, I think the 2nd gen Forester (2003 - 2008) is also a very good looking vehicle with a decent amount of room and decent (though not spectacular) power from the stock 2.5.

One thing that I like about Subaru is that they still offer manual transmissions - seems like so many other companies are going to all-slushbox lines in some of their vehicles (I'm pretty sure, for example, that you can't get a volvo with a stick shift.) A manual tranny in a Subaru should be good for 1 - 2 more MPG and also should make it feel peppier and more fun to drive.

 

[JacksonRally]

I will be biased towards a Subaru. But just 6 years ago I was a truck guy who thought there was no way I would ever buy another car let alone think about taking it off road. Then my brother bought his first Subaru, I finally drove it a year after he got it and I was hooked. I now have 4 Subarus, he has 2 and I make my living building rally cars and offroad Subarus. Lately I have been building more and more Subarus for light wheeling and trail riding. There is still a ton lacking in the aftermarket as far as traction enhancing devices but right out of the box they will surprise you. Ground clearance of course is the biggest issue. There are a few people (including myself) that make Subaru lift kits and right off the bat an Outback will have a touch more clearance than other Subies. Like others above have mentioned it is a must to keep up on regular maintenance. These cars are cheap to maintain and parts can be found worldwide.

 

[??????? Kilkelly]

For what you describe, an AWD car "sounds" O.K., but in my opinion is kind of like taking a knife to a gun fight. The biggest problem you will have with the use of an AWD car off road is ground clearance. Also, cars rarely have a low range transfer case, and some like the Subaru can be very finnicky in less than flat circumstances.

I know you said you are avoiding "jeep" things, but the first thing that came to my mind for you was an XJ Cherokee in stock form. Really they aren't much higher than a car, do everything you want, and can be had for a reasonable price. They also take up less space than many cars, and have a great turning radius. Driving one in the city can be very comfortable. Manual trans versions with stock tires get about 25 MPG, Automatics about 20 MPG. They are super reliable in 1994-01 form, cheap to fix, and many crest 300,000 miles on the stock 4.0 engine.

Any case, welcome to the group! There are alot of great folks here, and I think you will like it.

Thanks!
I forgot to mention the one constraint that my lady applied to the whole endavour- it's got to have UAS restraint hooks for our daughter's car seat (which means the vehicle needs to be made after 2002 in Canada). Otherwise, we'd already be driving an Xj, or some kind of 4runner. Unfortunately, the resale value of those (and JKs) is really, really high, and part-time 4 wheel drive isn't all that useful for us at the moment. The AWD is sort of a happy medium; it's good enough to get in to the house in the woods (over the unimproved farm track and unmarked dirt roads), and works well in most of the conditions we're going to encounter. In this case, it's a knife to a knife fight- this vehicle's primary role is on the road, not off. Of course, the term "road" is subject to interpretation in some cases.

 

[??????? Kilkelly]

Thanks, everyone!
I'm actually looking at a couple of xc70s, an a4 or two, and tested 2 325xi(t)s There's also a (completely bonkers 340hp) S6 wagon, and an outback XT in there somewhere. So far, I can't find a Subaru that doesn't have really high mileage, a really high price, or a weird history (accidents, 5 owners, etc)... unless it's a Baja. Maybe I'm having bad luck, though. We're testing a couple of A4 wagons and a Forester this weekend. The Forester is an hour out of town. The Allroad and the XC70 we tested today were really solid, and weren't an hour out of town... I also liked the Passat (yesterday), although it was lacking all of the usual 4motion badging. The guy SWORE it was a 4motion, though.

I'm getting the feeling that this board (and most of the other people with opinions about this stuff) heavily favour the Subarus. I can see why after driving a few. Also, it seems like their aftermarket support is way better than anything else I'm looking at.

 

[Redrock]

I'm getting the feeling that this board (and most of the other people with opinions about this stuff) heavily favour the Subarus. I can see why after driving a few. Also, it seems like their aftermarket support is way better than anything else I'm looking at.

I would personally favor the Subaru as well. On rough roads, suspension travel and ground clearance are important. The Audis, Volkswagens, and BMWs you're considering have very little of either attribute, and none of them are reknowned for their durability. I've been cruising along happily on a dirt road and been surprised by dust-concealed rocks, washouts, and changes in road condition, and if you're not driving an SUV, a little extra travel is simply insurance - like bringing water and a tool kit along.

The Volvo XC would be a great idea. Allroads always seem nice, but I've known two people who picked up "really solid" Allroads and ended up spending as much on maintenance in the first year as they did on the purchase. German cars are made to feel nice for the first 75,000 miles, and then they completely self-destruct; I think they're crap.

 

[2Shoes]

I have an 02 Subaru Outback and with some good driving skills this car will go anywhere I need it to. Coming from a Jeep on 35" tires I am very impressed with what I can do in the Outback. It has a ton of interior space, roof rack, and the ability to tow a small trailer. I was always a VW/Audi guy myself but after owning a Subaru for a few months, I'm hooked on them. I definitely like the 05 body style better but for the low price of $5,000 I couldn't turn it down. I also have a roof top tent on my Ouback and an ARB 60L offroad Fridge/Freezer in the back.

 

[nasko]

I would personally favor the Subaru as well. On rough roads, suspension travel and ground clearance are important. The Audis, Volkswagens, and BMWs you're considering have very little of either attribute, and none of them are reknowned for their durability. I've been cruising along happily on a dirt road and been surprised by dust-concealed rocks, washouts, and changes in road condition, and if you're not driving an SUV, a little extra travel is simply insurance - like bringing water and a tool kit along.

The Volvo XC would be a great idea. Allroads always seem nice, but I've known two people who picked up "really solid" Allroads and ended up spending as much on maintenance in the first year as they did on the purchase. German cars are made to feel nice for the first 75,000 miles, and then they completely self-destruct; I think they're crap.

I think that statement is a bit tough. I have seen numerous VWs with over 300K km and some TDI's reach well into the 500 to 600K km, even more while providing exceptional MPG. I personally drive a Subaru but German vehicles are well made, although a bit expensive to maintain here in North America

 

[FurthurOnTheFly]

Thanks, Heidi! I tried an '05 xt a little while ago, and the steering felt a little dead. Not as bad as the Volvos I've tested this week, but it wasn't making me want to buy it, either. The A4 and A6 that I tried in the weeks before, though... I'm hooked. Unfortunately, you're echoing the same thing everyone has told me (mostly people who haven't ever owned one of these cars)- "Audis cost more to repair".. so my question is, how often is it going to end up in the shop on average? As often as a Subaru? More often? Obviously, this depends on who is driving it, but I'm looking for a general idea.

IMO in regards to the Allroad probably the biggest thing you'd need to make sure was ok on an older vehicle is the airbags. We never had any problems with ours, but I have heard of others have nightmare issues. The problem we had was with the TPMS system. It just never worked. Was constantly going off, even when the tires were fine. It got to be really annoying. Even Audi couldn't figure it out...they even sent an engineer out from Germany to look at it, constantly replaced parts...nothing. Finally they offered to buy back the vehicle and refund our payments and we took them up on it to thin the heard at the time.

With that said, Audi service is some of the best, and I would not hesitate to buy another again. I would just hesitate purchasing any older used German vehicle...I've had some nightmares with several Volkswagens and a BMW. For me, buying anything used thats older the 3-5 years = Subaru/Toyota/Honda.

Unless it was a Syncro Bus!!

 

[??????? Kilkelly]

IMO in regards to the Allroad probably the biggest thing you'd need to make sure was ok on an older vehicle is the airbags. We never had any problems with ours, but I have heard of others have nightmare issues. The problem we had was with the TPMS system. It just never worked. Was constantly going off, even when the tires were fine. It got to be really annoying. Even Audi couldn't figure it out...they even sent an engineer out from Germany to look at it, constantly replaced parts...nothing. Finally they offered to buy back the vehicle and refund our payments and we took them up on it to thin the heard at the time.

With that said, Audi service is some of the best, and I would not hesitate to buy another again. I would just hesitate purchasing any older used German vehicle...I've had some nightmares with several Volkswagens and a BMW. For me, buying anything used thats older the 3-5 years = Subaru/Toyota/Honda.

Unless it was a Syncro Bus!!

A good friend of mine has managed to keep most of his Audis running into the 300k range. Of course, he seems to be the exception, and even he has had a few that didn't work out too well. He also races Porsches for fun, so he's got a few mechanic friends who are pretty useful, I think. A4 sedans and 10 year old Volvos are also as common as ragweed around here- so I'm going to guess that either people have scads of money to burn, or parts are more easily available than in the US. With all that said, I'd love to get my hands on an H6 or an XT Outback, but there seem to be none available in my price range at the moment that are any good.

I'd LOVE a Syncro. My wife, on the other hand, would not be able to deal with it as a DD. Since this is going to be our ONLY car, Syncros, XJs, Tacos and all the other truck and van options have pretty much been vetoed.