Border destruction concerns.

[Pskhaat]

AZ & CA have ordered Nat'l Guard to the borders to assist in road building, infrastructure, etc.

The politics that is missing here is won't the great border build-out severely impact the pristine desert broder land? I was dismayed even in January how unremote the Camino Del Diablo now is due to the Border Patrol presence. Absolutely nothing against the Border Patrol nor Nat'l Guart in any way I applaud each and every one of them, but should we be concerned about the destruction that may result?

 

[Ursidae69]

I'm glad you get it. Most do not I'm afraid. They think it is all just barren desert. Of all the deserts in the world, the Sonoran Desert is one of the most diverse. It's certainly my favorite place to explore.

Every year I work some of the most remote rugged country in the USA along the US/Mexico border in southwestern New Mexico. The thought of roads and triple width border fences in these areas makes me sad. The diversity in the sky islands in the south near the border is incredible. Even jaguars are known to roam in the area. Speaking of jaguars, there is a great book with a photographic account of a jaguar in southern AZ (Link to the book). Roseann knows the rancher that took the photos. Anyway, what will happen to their migration pathways with a huge fence that stretches 2000 miles? The deer, pronghorn, coyotes, foxes, etc.etc.etc., they all move around.

I don't see any good coming from any of this and I have strong doubts the new efforts to guard the border and build fences will have any effect on immigration/drugs/ or terror threats. I think it is all an exercise by politicians trying to prove to each other who is doing the most to protect our country while really doing nothing except destroying pristine areas. Hmmm, how many threats do we have from a rugged mountain pass along the Mexican border compared to the thousands of transportainers entering our ports daily that are not searched??

EDIT: Sorry, I'm overly opinionated on this.

 

[awalter]

The Iron Curtain didn't work & the fence won't either. A total waste of tax payers money to destroy our beautiful deserts.

 

[Scott Brady]

It is a bad plan IMO. We need immigrant workers as bad as they need the jobs. We just need to make it easy for them to register as workers and to collect taxes; that simple. Keep the restrictions on professional positions and skilled manufacturing as we always have.

Have the only carrot be a job, and nothing else unless they are citizens, or are paying taxes. No schools, no hospitals, etc. I can't get free healthcare in Mexico, or attend a Mexican University for free because that just makes sense. This dang entitlement crap just kills me.

Ten years ago, I explored the Sand Tank Mountains, and it was a paradise, now, there are dozens of new roads (heading N/S) and trash everywhere. Mass destruction.

 

[jeffryscott]

I've been covering the border for nearly 20 years and what I have seen saddens me.

Border Patrol and National Guard are doing what they are told by Washington - but what they do is create more roads, which in reality makes it easier for smugglers. It isn't done on purpose, but that is the reality. Border Patrol agents, ranchers and smugglers have told me this.

As migrants are pushed out into the boonies, pristine desert is being horribly trashed. I've seen lay-in spots that look like a small town's dump. It is horrible and sad.

I've ridden horses around the sky islands with Mr. Glenn, the rancher who photographed the jaguar Chuck mentioned near Douglas. As Chuck said, the human intrusion of the military, increased border patrol, smugglers, migrants, national guard, fences is going to devastate the areas, and it is going to continue, and unfortunately it is going to get worse.

When I first started photographing around the border, the migrants were truly migrants - they'd come, work, go home, and repeat the cycle every so often. Now, more women and children are crossing because people are coming to stay - it is too hard to cross. To me, this makes "illegal immigration" a bigger problem. It is forcing whole families to move here where before just a few family members came for a short period of time (obviously some came to stay, but most that I've talked to over the years want to go home, but now they can't)

It is the ultimate Catch-22 for government agencies, migrants and the environment.

There has to be a mechanism for people to come over legally and work. Obviously there is a need, and obviously they will come at whatever expense. Walls don't work (I've seen homemade ladders on rope thrown over, letting people cross, then pulled back within days of the landing mat going up).

Rant over. I don't envy the politicians who try to solve this - there is no easy solution. Neither the political left or right have the answers, nor does Mexico.

 

[jeffryscott]

I've been covering the border for nearly 20 years and what I have seen saddens me.

Border Patrol and National Guard are doing what they are told by Washington - but what they do is create more roads, which in reality makes it easier for smugglers. It isn't done on purpose, but that is the reality. Border Patrol agents, ranchers and smugglers have told me this.

As migrants are pushed out into the boonies, pristine desert is being horribly trashed. I've seen lay-in spots that look like a small town's dump. It is horrible and sad.

I've ridden horses around the sky islands with Mr. Glenn, the rancher who photographed the jaguar Chuck mentioned near Douglas. As Chuck said, the human intrusion of the military, increased border patrol, smugglers, migrants, national guard, fences is going to devastate the areas, and it is going to continue, and unfortunately it is going to get worse.

When I first started photographing around the border, the migrants were truly migrants - they'd come, work, go home, and repeat the cycle every so often. Now, more women and children are crossing because people are coming to stay - it is too hard to cross. To me, this makes "illegal immigration" a bigger problem. It is forcing whole families to move here where before just a few family members came for a short period of time (obviously some came to stay, but most that I've talked to over the years want to go home, but now they can't)

It is the ultimate Catch-22 for government agencies, migrants and the environment.

There has to be a mechanism for people to come over legally and work. Obviously there is a need, and obviously they will come at whatever expense. Walls don't work (I've seen homemade ladders on rope thrown over, letting people cross, then pulled back within days of the landing mat going up).

Rant over. I don't envy the politicians who try to solve this - there is no easy solution. Neither the political left or right have the answers, nor does Mexico.

 

[calamaridog]

Ten years ago, I explored the Sand Tank Mountains, and it was a paradise, now, there are dozens of new roads (heading N/S) and trash everywhere. Mass destruction.

Yes, this will end badly and MASS DESTRUCTION is an appropriate description of what happens. First the migrants and trash, then the BP, then the fences. Exactly how it happened here in San Diego.

Eventually, the problem will disappear to someone elses back yard (currently yours). This is what we call victory The trash, the bad memories, and destroyed lives will remain.

Something certainly needs to be done, but a fence across the entire border is not a desireable option.

 

[Mike S]

Fence the border??!! Right, that will do the trick...

There is no way to seal the border. Anyone with a pair of wirecutters can go though a fence, or over a fence, or under...

This entire project seems to be typical 'feel good' politics at it's most destructive. Given the Bush Administration's incredibly poor environmental record, I doubt that they consider, or care about, the damage that this sceme will do to a fragile environment, when recovery, if initiated, would take centuries.

Mike S

 

[Ursidae69]

Great posts from everyone on this subject, really well thought out. Maybe we all should be running things. :luxhello:

 

[calamaridog]

Great posts from everyone on this subject, really well thought out. Maybe we all should be running things. :luxhello:

I suspect that running things in no fun at all and would seriously impact weekends in the wilderness

 

[clarkrw3]

I understand many of your objections to the new "boarder security". I however, see a different story line every day. I work in a childrens dental office in central phx that is almost all govermental funded dental insurance to mostly children of illegal imegrants. I understand I am lumping people into generalizions, however, the vast majority work the system. They come, have their kids in the US and keep having kids in the US, because the get more money with every kid they have (a small family is 4 kids). They do not take care of these kids, many of these parents could be turned into CPS for neglect. Some of these kids need half of their teeth removed by 4 years of age. I could go on and on, but will spare you.

It has been said that with all the "free" benefits we end up giving to illegal "cheap" labors we are in essence paying them the equil of $22 per hr without taxation. So, yes, we need these "cheap laborers".

By the way I have had many patients that actually keep there kids in mexico and only bring them in to use our health care and then take them back.

 

[Scenic WonderRunner]

The boarder needs to be watched/controlled..........not ruined!

I agree with changing the rules/laws to make it VERY unattractive for them to sneak over here.

For example.....

If you are born in the U.S. by an illegal mother.....you DO NOT automatically become a U.S. citizen. In fact....you should both be deported and send the bill to the Mexican Govt. !!!

Let them sneak back to Mexico for their health care!

No schooling.....health care......no money for your tons of babies.....nothing!

If you want that......get in line and cross legally.

The problem is....we have looked the other way for years and they know it!

 

[clarkrw3]

agreed....no argument here!!

The boarder needs to be watched/controlled..........not ruined!

I agree with changing the rules/laws to make it VERY unattractive for them to sneak over here.

For example.....

If you are born in the U.S. by an illegal mother.....you DO NOT automatically become a U.S. citizen. In fact....you should both be deported and send the bill to the Mexican Govt. !!!

Let them sneak back to Mexico for their health care!

No schooling.....health care......no money for your tons of babies.....nothing!

If you want that......get in line and cross legally.

The problem is....we have looked the other way for years and they know it!

 

[DesertRose]

I'm glad you get it. Most do not I'm afraid. They think it is all just barren desert. Of all the deserts in the world, the Sonoran Desert is one of the most diverse. It's certainly my favorite place to explore.

Every year I work some of the most remote rugged country in the USA along the US/Mexico border in southwestern New Mexico. The thought of roads and triple width border fences in these areas makes me sad. The diversity in the sky islands in the south near the border is incredible. Even jaguars are known to roam in the area. Speaking of jaguars, there is a great book with a photographic account of a jaguar in southern AZ (Link to the book). Roseann knows the rancher that took the photos. Anyway, what will happen to their migration pathways with a huge fence that stretches 2000 miles? The deer, pronghorn, coyotes, foxes, etc.etc.etc., they all move around.

I don't see any good coming from any of this and I have strong doubts the new efforts to guard the border and build fences will have any effect on immigration/drugs/ or terror threats. I think it is all an exercise by politicians trying to prove to each other who is doing the most to protect our country while really doing nothing except destroying pristine areas. Hmmm, how many threats do we have from a rugged mountain pass along the Mexican border compared to the thousands of transportainers entering our ports daily that are not searched??

EDIT: Sorry, I'm overly opinionated on this.

As always, Chuck really sums it up well.

I just got back from an Arizona Game & Fish Heritage Fund Advisory Committee meeting in Flagstaff (we get to help decide how the $10 million annual revenue from lottery is spent on wildlife management in AZ) and one of the hot topics for researchers and conservation scientists in AZ is border issues: namely, the proposed fence and the escalating vehicle activity along the border.

As our governor (a very smart lady and a great governor IMO) said, "Show me a 20-foot wall and I'll show you a 22-foot ladder").

No easy solution here. My guess is much of this is political posturing set up at the highest levels (look back to the Fox-Bush meetings 18 months ago) - to complicate the situation enough that legislation gets passed that might not have otherwise (in other words: scare the Dems and try to make the Reps happy with tough talk and draconian Wall plans; then introduce guest worker program and possibly try to pass amnesty, to make Fox happy . . . government by proxy, and a foriegn proxy at that!!).

Those of us truly on the ground out here in the war zone get to see it all up close and personal: the trash, the environmental destruction, the loss of lives all for wont of a job (it's easy to dismiss these immigrants as just wanting to milk the system, until you meet them and see that they are for the most part just citizens like us but unlucky enough to be born in a country where opportunity is zippo; or you see the bodies of the ones who didn't make it to your house where you leave food and water . . .). Not to mention the daily BlackHawk visits (I've stopped walking between buildings in my skivvies!), Border Patrol setting up road blocks and towers so that your drive to town feels like Bosnia or Baghdad, etcetera etcetera.

Thanks, though, to everyone on the forum who ARE paying attention and who care. Most Americans don't - they just want their cheap ripe tomatoes and lettuce in January, their cheap landscaping and construction work, clean hotel rooms - and please-don't-bother-me-with-the-details.

 

[calamaridog]

The underlying reasons for problems which force migrants north still exist. We should have spent more money on developing economies in our own back yard instead of all over the damn world.