Calling home (or a tow truck)

[ntsqd]

Invoking it w/o due cause is not in my game plan. As the clause states, it would need to be a matter life or death, with consideration for my layman standing as a First Responder, for me to consider employing it.

However, If I can not invoke it as I deem necessary & with due cause w/o fear of prosecution then ham radios are of no use, what so ever, to me.

It is obvious that nothing like this could be even considered for the original poster's non-emergency partial intent.

 

[gary in ohio]

My understanding is that the grey area with autopatches comes in when dealing with businesses. So calling your wife (particularly in an emergency), there really is no question. But calling AAA might invoke the business transaction provisions.

Its really not a grey area. Business communications is not calling a business but conducting business over ham radio. Calling for a tow truck or even calling a pizza place is not against FCC rules (it might be against repeater owners rules).
Conducting your business, calling clients or calling your secretary for messages/info would be a business use. calling your wife in an emergency or not is not illegal. While not as common now that most people have cell phones. Calls to the wife to let them know your on your way home was the vast majority of autopatch calls a number of years ago.

 

[gary in ohio]

I'm either not understanding you, or not explaining what I'm thinking of clearly.

I'm thinking of an extension to the current autopatch setup.
- Radio calls into an autopatch repeater
- Radio call get keyed in
- IF it is local the autopatch repeater would just dial the number
ELSE it connects to an autopatch repeater that IS local to the number (via the internet)
- Repeater 2 would then make the local call and the call would be carried out via a VOIP connection.

Craig

If your linking two repeaters then your linking not using an autopatch even if the autopatch is used for linking.

 

[craig]

LOL... I was aware of this provision when I mentioned that I didn't think a broken serpentine belt was considered life or death.... so back to the regular scheduled programming...


Options:

APRS e-mail
Autopatch

Any other means of communication that will work with non-HAMs? It doesn't have to be 2 way. The important thing is getting a message through reliably (which APRS doesn't really do since there is no ACK).

C

 

[gary in ohio]

Playing devil's advocate here (Not trying to be argumentative. Just exploring the legal issues.)

So, if I'm controlling my radio can I let my unlicensed son talk on it?

I had the same concern with calling AAA. I guess if I need it, I'll probably call my wife and have her call AAA for me. A broken serpentine belt probably doesn't qualify as a life or death emergency.

Craig

IF your in control of the radio then anyone can talk on the radio. They are 3rd party and 3rd party rules apply, on a repeater you really have no issues if your in the US, if your on HF then and talking outside the USA then you need to make sure the US has a 3rd party agreement before they can talk.

Autopatches are not just for emergencies. Calling AAA would be ok as long as your not put on music hold.

 

[gary in ohio]

One of the early things I read about ham radio is that in the FCC codes is the caveat that in the event of an emergency there are no rules

You need to re-read that part of the rules, rules dont go away in an emergency. The rules also apply to ham radio and ham radio freq. The rule doesnt allow you to go on a police frequency. What it allows is someone who doesnt have HF privileges to use HF in an emergency, use a band, ham freq or mode there license class doesnt allow. Use a power level there class is not permitted.

So who defines what an emergency is, and who gets to declare one? If I, as John Q. declare an emergency and break some rule in resolving it, am I likely to face prosecution?

Emergency is IMMEDIATE threat to LIFE.. Your injured and need help is an emergency. Your car on fire is not an emergency if no one is in the car.

 

[craig]

If your linking two repeaters then your linking not using an autopatch even if the autopatch is used for linking.

I'm suggesting a NEW extension to autopatch. Automatic repeater linking based on the phone number. The linking would be transparent to the autopatch user.

C

 

[gary in ohio]

I'm suggesting a NEW extension to autopatch. Automatic repeater linking based on the phone number. The linking would be transparent to the autopatch user.

C

If your goal is free LD, why not just use the VOIP for the free LD instead of linking to another repeater to dial locally.

If your talking about linking repeaters then skip the autopatch and link the radios propertly. Echolink, IRLP is basicly what your talking about.

 

[ntsqd]

You need to re-read that part of the rules, rules dont go away in an emergency. The rules also apply to ham radio and ham radio freq. The rule doesnt allow you to go on a police frequency. What it allows is someone who doesnt have HF privileges to use HF in an emergency, use a band, ham freq or mode there license class doesnt allow. Use a power level there class is not permitted.


Emergency is IMMEDIATE threat to LIFE.. Your injured and need help is an emergency. Your car on fire is not an emergency if no one is in the car.

I'm not getting that from that section. It is not there. It says any means available and does not put limits on "any". The constraints you mention may be somewhere, but not there.

FWIW my vehicle being on fire could be life threatening as it would likely be in a remote spot and what I would need to survive might just be burning with it.

 

[craig]

If your goal is free LD, why not just use the VOIP for the free LD instead of linking to another repeater to dial locally.

If your talking about linking repeaters then skip the autopatch and link the radios propertly. Echolink, IRLP is basicly what your talking about.

You are right, it isn't necessary to link to an autorepeater to make the final call. It could be any VOIP Server commercial or private. The easiest solution architecturally speaking would probably be to just modify autopatch to *always* make a connection to a PBX server, then let that PBX decide how to route the calls whether local or through a VOIP server somewhere. E.g. Asterisks that runs under linux can already route calls through a VOIP connection, out a local phone line, etc so there isn't really a need to write all the code to do that into autopatch.

Craig

 

[gary in ohio]

I'm not getting that from that section. It is not there. It says any means available and does not put limits on "any". The constraints you mention may be somewhere, but not there.

97.405 No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention, make known its condition and location, and obtain assistance.

Now read 97.3, part 5: Amateur station. A station in an amateur radio service consisting of the apparatus necessary for carrying on radiocommunications.

and
2) Amateur radio services. The amateur service, the amateur-satellite service and the radio amateur civil emergency service.


part 4 4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

NO place does it say that ham radio can leave the ham bands. Part 5, a amateur radio station is a station in amateur radio service. NO other service.

Just about every service has the same wording for emergencies and none of them mean you can go on any frequency. Ham radio is one of the few services were this is even possible. Soon it will not matter becuase public safety will be digital and on 700mhz, but for now getting on the police bands with your ham radio is not legal even during an emergency. NOW, if I had the option of letting someone die or doing something illegal, Ill take the illegal stance, but legally there is nothing to allow hams to go out of bands.

 

[ntsqd]

Interesting. If that is the total language addressing this issue then it doesn't expressly forbid it either.
So then broadcasting with ham equipt. on a non ham freq becomes a question of did the situation justify the means, and absent specific language about it only a court can decide that. That the FCC could be pricks & claim that the modified equipt. demostrates intent and go after you for that is a given. I'll still take the gray zone to safe a life too.

Oh well, I've hijacked this thread WAAAYYY too much as it is. Thank you.

 

[gary in ohio]

Interesting. If that is the total language addressing this issue then it doesn't expressly forbid it either.
So then broadcasting with ham equipt. on a non ham freq becomes a question of did the situation justify the means, and absent specific language about it only a court can decide that. That the FCC could be pricks & claim that the modified equipt. demostrates intent and go after you for that is a given. I'll still take the gray zone to safe a life too.

First of all if your broadcasting then your in violation of other ham rules. Second of all this is FCC rules so there is no court involved in right or wrong. FCC decides if your in violation of the rules. The language is very specific, ham gear and be use on any ham band to call in an emergency. Now As I said, if its me and I can use a ham radio on police band in a real emergency, doing just that.Ill worry about the FCC later, but the rules dont back me on that.

 

[K2RVR]

Craig, My understanding is that a Ham can allow others to use the equipment, frequency, and repeaters as long as it is under the Ham's control. When Auto patching, you are in control of the repeater and can terminate the call when needed, therefore you are in control, and the use is legal. The person on the land line cannot control the autopatch.

Using the autopatch for AAA is not for your profit, business, etc, but to contact a resource to get assistance. If you were the towing agency monitoring then reaching out to negotiate helping someone for profit, it would be sketchy and most likely "not allowed". Not sure how it would work if AAA monitored a frequency waiting for stranded motorists to reach out to them... Hmmmnnn. However, you getting someone on a repeater to contact AAA on your behalf is certainly OK. This is how I understand it.

Todd

 

[craig]

Thanks Todd.