Oh don't get me wrong, I boycot most Chinese made stuff regardless of whose name is stamped on it. It was VERY difficult Christmas shopping this year!
And don't get me wrong I wouldn't purchase any of their products anyways.
Chinese Air Locker
- Thread starter sross
- Start date
Oh don't get me wrong, I boycot most Chinese made stuff regardless of whose name is stamped on it. It was VERY difficult Christmas shopping this year!
And don't get me wrong I wouldn't purchase any of their products anyways.
greentruck
Adventurer
There you go. It's already finding it's market.
I've got HF tools and I have Klein, etc tools. Depends on the job. Most tools you can look at and determine if it's suitable for your intended use and funds. Admittedly, a locker could be a different bird.
There are two separate arguments going on here...
1)Is the knock off a viable part from a suitability point of view
2)Is the knock off a viable part from an ethical point of view
To address point 1, ARBs test shows that system failure for the knock off was within 7% of that of the original part. assuming manufacturing tolerances etc etc etc this seems like an acceptable variance. Whether your axle or your diff fails makes little difference trailside if you do not have the correct tools, parts or know how to do a jua kali fix. It could also be argued that the knock off may have inferior wear and tear, longevity or usability. All these points may be true, however there is only one piece of empirical evidence in these areas, that is that ARB chose not to address them, which would appear to indicate that the greatest area of weakness of the knock off vice their product was strength of the components.
As to the ethics of the issue. The engineering of the part has clearly been stolen. This must however be weighed against ARBs pricing structure. Assuming that the engineering work has been done for a given design, and that those costs have been defrayed, marginal cost for producing an additional cost would come down to variable costs for that particular unit (material, supplies, manpower et al)... these are relatively tiny. The only other costs involved are advertising customer support and the like. As with any industry, brand recognition pays a large part in product selection, and allows a company to charge massive premiums. It is my contention that this may be why ARB's price structure is so high; it is not that they have a vastly superior product, but that they have the perception of a superior product. Unfortunately perception only goes so far, and attempting to maintain a premium price structure in the face of cheaper, functionally equal rivalry is futile and best and usury at worst. It comes down to the individual consumer to decide which is worse... to let a rival steal intellectual property or to allow a company to charge monopoly prices...
As to the argument of not buying Chinese; most I have talked to appear to be missing the point. In order to strengthen the domestic economy the answer is "Buy Local" not "Do Not Buy Chinese"... sending money to Australia does as much damage to the US economy as sending it to China. In this case it actually does more, as on a per item basis one must spend several times as much money. To put it another way, the problem is not that money is going into a foreign economy, but that it is coming out of a local one... Sending $100 to china has about a $150 long term effect on the US economy, sending $100 to Australia does exactly the same thing. What we are talking about here though is sending 400 to china vs 1100 to Australia, and the second is far more damaging.
1)Is the knock off a viable part from a suitability point of view
2)Is the knock off a viable part from an ethical point of view
To address point 1, ARBs test shows that system failure for the knock off was within 7% of that of the original part. assuming manufacturing tolerances etc etc etc this seems like an acceptable variance. Whether your axle or your diff fails makes little difference trailside if you do not have the correct tools, parts or know how to do a jua kali fix. It could also be argued that the knock off may have inferior wear and tear, longevity or usability. All these points may be true, however there is only one piece of empirical evidence in these areas, that is that ARB chose not to address them, which would appear to indicate that the greatest area of weakness of the knock off vice their product was strength of the components.
As to the ethics of the issue. The engineering of the part has clearly been stolen. This must however be weighed against ARBs pricing structure. Assuming that the engineering work has been done for a given design, and that those costs have been defrayed, marginal cost for producing an additional cost would come down to variable costs for that particular unit (material, supplies, manpower et al)... these are relatively tiny. The only other costs involved are advertising customer support and the like. As with any industry, brand recognition pays a large part in product selection, and allows a company to charge massive premiums. It is my contention that this may be why ARB's price structure is so high; it is not that they have a vastly superior product, but that they have the perception of a superior product. Unfortunately perception only goes so far, and attempting to maintain a premium price structure in the face of cheaper, functionally equal rivalry is futile and best and usury at worst. It comes down to the individual consumer to decide which is worse... to let a rival steal intellectual property or to allow a company to charge monopoly prices...
As to the argument of not buying Chinese; most I have talked to appear to be missing the point. In order to strengthen the domestic economy the answer is "Buy Local" not "Do Not Buy Chinese"... sending money to Australia does as much damage to the US economy as sending it to China. In this case it actually does more, as on a per item basis one must spend several times as much money. To put it another way, the problem is not that money is going into a foreign economy, but that it is coming out of a local one... Sending $100 to china has about a $150 long term effect on the US economy, sending $100 to Australia does exactly the same thing. What we are talking about here though is sending 400 to china vs 1100 to Australia, and the second is far more damaging.
alosix
Expedition Leader
P71, Very interesting points there..
My thoughts:
I doubt its a copy. I bet its actually built off of modified ARB specs. It is not unusual at all for a Chinese factory to produce parts during 'the day shift' to spec for a customer, then.. during the night shift produce a nearly exact copy of that product. The copied product will normally have changes, but those are likely just to reduce the cost of producing it.
ARB says that the lockers we get are produced in AU. I don't doubt that. Do they have another line, or another country that they will sell a Chinese made ARB branded locker to? That would be interesting to know.
My thoughts:
I doubt its a copy. I bet its actually built off of modified ARB specs. It is not unusual at all for a Chinese factory to produce parts during 'the day shift' to spec for a customer, then.. during the night shift produce a nearly exact copy of that product. The copied product will normally have changes, but those are likely just to reduce the cost of producing it.
ARB says that the lockers we get are produced in AU. I don't doubt that. Do they have another line, or another country that they will sell a Chinese made ARB branded locker to? That would be interesting to know.
sross
Adventurer
Thanks P71, that was a good post. I am leaning heavily towards doing it. That is upon the army paying me my extension bonus (6 months late at this point) otherwise I have to use other money for the trip which won't leave anything for lockers etc. I get back in a month or so and we'll see whats what. I have no idea what condition the truck is in right now, the guy who was supposed to be painting it and fixing stuff got hooked on meth or something and disappeared with my winch and tires; so I have no idea how much it will cost to finish getting it ready.
AFSOC
Explorer
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
I'll make my comments simple. I've had my hands on these lockers as well as other parts from China4x4 both here in the US and in Australia, I was less than impressed with both the quality of materials as well as the quality of machining. The are often reverse engineered on old ARB locker designs. They have a long ways to go both in manufacturing, material selection and furthermore customer service and future product support. In most cases by they time you reach this point, your at or near the cost of the proven ARB. I can tell you that while they are obvious reverse engineered copies of different ARB iterations, many of the parts will not interchange and when (not if) you need a spare part be it in 5 years when you have a bent housing or next month when your grenaded pinion destroys the seal housing... will spares be available? There will always be room for legit competition and new products, rarely imo will low quality rev-engineered models fit that bill.
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
The ARB locker is in fact built in their factory in Australia, I have seen it with my own eyes in all stages of manufacturing from R&D to machining to assembly to warehousing. While they do manufacture some of their products in Asia, it is my understanding that they own their own factory that produces their products and only their products. I know for a fact ARB embedded some of their Aussie manufacturing specialists in their Asia plant for quite some time, possibly indefinitely, to monitor quality control, etc. This is vastly different than using one of the many 'sister factories' that make identical products, often based on carbon-copy designs of legit manufactures.
Having been raised in Asia I am well aware of the impact of knock off products. As was mentioned by alosix the real problem is often not the knock off but a mislabeled genuine product.
I talked to a Nike rep years ago who said that the way they used to track production was through the number of labels used (same way gas stations track cofee and soda sales by the number of cups missing, and KBR tracked meals in Iraq by the number of plates and to go boxes gone). If a shirt did not meet quality control, it would not get a label and would be presumed to be destroyed. The thought process was that you could not sell the shirt without the tag (this is the same process that publishers use overseas... they control the number of book covers their printers receive... if the printer screws up a book they do not apply the cover, and the publisher just needs to keep track of the numbers of covers sent and finished books returned). Unfortunately all this means is you need to do is work out how to run double shifts and make fake labels, or book covers.
Sorry I tend to ramble.
I talked to a Nike rep years ago who said that the way they used to track production was through the number of labels used (same way gas stations track cofee and soda sales by the number of cups missing, and KBR tracked meals in Iraq by the number of plates and to go boxes gone). If a shirt did not meet quality control, it would not get a label and would be presumed to be destroyed. The thought process was that you could not sell the shirt without the tag (this is the same process that publishers use overseas... they control the number of book covers their printers receive... if the printer screws up a book they do not apply the cover, and the publisher just needs to keep track of the numbers of covers sent and finished books returned). Unfortunately all this means is you need to do is work out how to run double shifts and make fake labels, or book covers.
Sorry I tend to ramble.
You do know that Chinese steel are imported into the US in vast quantities?
dbreid
Adventurer
This is absolutely true. I have been to China, and there are places that sell the exact same stuff, from the same factory, made by the same workers for less money, because the workers themsevles just run the factory a few extra hours, and make a few more....
Also don't confuse what the Chinese DO make with what they CAN make. They (like anyone else) are capable of producing ANYTHING you pay for. It is only because the US and other nations WANT cheap stuff from China that China makes cheap stuff. It isn't like that's all they can make, or that there is somehow a gene to produce only crappy things...
trump
Adventurist
There's always a demand for cheap vehicles, so I break into them, drive them across the border, and sell them at cut rate prices. The best thing is, they're the real deal... I only steal genuine high quality cars.
Bottom line, you support someone stealing reputable companies products, it's detrimental to our hobby. In this case one that makes quality gear, sponsors offroad events, gives top-notch service, and promotes responsible trail use.
I guess with the GPS era, we have no need for that broken moral compass anymore.
ARB's philosophy: quality, reliability, and practicality above all else.
Chinese thief: rape, pillage, and burn to make a quick buck.
Bottom line, you support someone stealing reputable companies products, it's detrimental to our hobby. In this case one that makes quality gear, sponsors offroad events, gives top-notch service, and promotes responsible trail use.
I guess with the GPS era, we have no need for that broken moral compass anymore.
ARB's philosophy: quality, reliability, and practicality above all else.
Chinese thief: rape, pillage, and burn to make a quick buck.
LOL
Most roof top tents come from china, most of there steel comes from australia, the locker was never designed or originally made by ARB, most of there bullbars are made in thailand, TJM prolockers are cast and machined in china, the machining as quoted by an independant engineer was better than ARB so don't believe all the stories.
Most roof top tents come from china, most of there steel comes from australia, the locker was never designed or originally made by ARB, most of there bullbars are made in thailand, TJM prolockers are cast and machined in china, the machining as quoted by an independant engineer was better than ARB so don't believe all the stories.
This is too Funny.
When Smittybilt first came out with the XRC8 winch I bought one to test. All the Warn nerds laughed at how stupid I was for buying something like that. Now, the XRC8 has virtually the same specs as the Warn, at least as good if not better (in my experience) customer service and there are tons of people buying them. They now have a proven track record and are a great tool. My original one is still working on the original jeep that I sold and the new jeep has a new XRC8 and I use it a LOT in the recoveries we do, never had a failure.
My point here is, there are tons of nay-sayers, but testing was done to show the break strength is similar, build is similar and in all the internet chat, there is virtually nothing showing any failures but there seem to be a lot happy with them. The people saying they are junk, have nothing substantial to back them up except that it is chinese made. Basically, they are a lot of broken records repeating the same thing over and over. Give it a try and see if it works, if it breaks like some thing will, you are out a bit but you will learn something, if it holds up as expected, you got what you wanted at a price you could afford.
Just because something is better, does not mean we can afford to pay the difference, you have to weigh the differences. If I need new screwdrivers, I will get more Craftsman brand. They are not perfect and I break tips, but they hold hp well and they are replaced free. I would not buy the Harbor Freight ones at half the price because I know, from experience, they will bend or snap on the first hard use and they laugh if you ask them to replace them. However, For a heavy vise that I use occasionally and never really hard, I will own the much cheaper HF version as it will fit my needs and my budget. This locker was shown to hold a torque up to 6400 and it is 93% of the ARB and way more than his Sammy will put out, so why not try it?????
Rant off
When Smittybilt first came out with the XRC8 winch I bought one to test. All the Warn nerds laughed at how stupid I was for buying something like that. Now, the XRC8 has virtually the same specs as the Warn, at least as good if not better (in my experience) customer service and there are tons of people buying them. They now have a proven track record and are a great tool. My original one is still working on the original jeep that I sold and the new jeep has a new XRC8 and I use it a LOT in the recoveries we do, never had a failure.
My point here is, there are tons of nay-sayers, but testing was done to show the break strength is similar, build is similar and in all the internet chat, there is virtually nothing showing any failures but there seem to be a lot happy with them. The people saying they are junk, have nothing substantial to back them up except that it is chinese made. Basically, they are a lot of broken records repeating the same thing over and over. Give it a try and see if it works, if it breaks like some thing will, you are out a bit but you will learn something, if it holds up as expected, you got what you wanted at a price you could afford.
Just because something is better, does not mean we can afford to pay the difference, you have to weigh the differences. If I need new screwdrivers, I will get more Craftsman brand. They are not perfect and I break tips, but they hold hp well and they are replaced free. I would not buy the Harbor Freight ones at half the price because I know, from experience, they will bend or snap on the first hard use and they laugh if you ask them to replace them. However, For a heavy vise that I use occasionally and never really hard, I will own the much cheaper HF version as it will fit my needs and my budget. This locker was shown to hold a torque up to 6400 and it is 93% of the ARB and way more than his Sammy will put out, so why not try it?????
Rant off