Chrysler on boad with 54.5 MPG CAFE requirement for 2025. Fingers crossed

[cnynrat]

I personally think the fundamental difference in thinking comes down to "Do you want to improve the way things are, or do you want to keep everything the same."
It's safe to say European and Japanese auto-makers are subscribing to the "Make it better" mentality, and I think there is a huge risk of North American auto makers being left in the dust. Toyota is now the biggest auto maker in the world, and if not for the bail-outs, I think more than a few North American brands would be gone (or totally different).

-Dan

I think the bolded part doesn't reflect reality. First of all, there are already so many government mandates that all auto manufaturers are dealing with right now that it's very difficult to distinguish what they would do on their own from what they are doing because they are being told to do it.

Beyond that though, I think they are all working as best they can to satisfy their respective customers. European and Asian manufacturers are responding to the higher priority their local customers place on fuel economy which is driven by higher gas prices in those countries. Equalize fuel prices and I think you would see similar product solutions.

 

[Dan Grec]

You want a diesel? Cool! Me too! Why doesn't Chrysler bring diesels to the US?
...
so no diesels here for the foreseeable future.

The Grand Cherokee will have the 3.0 VM/Motori Diesel in North America in January 2013.
(They are doing a short run on the 2013 model year, then in Jan they will have the 2014 model year)

On another note, almost all of the North American auto makers have committed to having a diesel in the showrooms in the next 1-2 years.
Not all are trucks/SUVs, but it's a step in the right direction none the less.

-Dan

 

[camper357]

Chrysler will be lucky to be in business in 2025!

 

[unimog]

Unfortunately, Fiat doesn't have any cool diesel tech (they don't really have any cool tech period, it's a style brand), so no diesels here for the foreseeable future. They do have a bunch of small European city cars though!

I don't have any relation with FIAT or Chrysler group, but I would like to share that FIAT is not just "a style brand". In fact they developed and introduced to the market innovative technology for diesel engine (common rail) and they continue to do so: http://www.fptindustrial.com/en-UK/RESEARCHANDTECHNOLOGY/Pages/ResearchTechnology.aspx

So the issue is not if they have it or can they bring to NA, it is just a profit return evaluation within the future outlook they share

 

[JLH9]

The ten rules of Economics are:
1-Everyone faces trade-offs
2-the cost of something is what you give up to get it.
3-Rational people think on the margin.
4-Everyone responds to incentives.
5-Everyone benefits from trade.
6-Markets are a good way to organize an economy
7-The government can sometimes improve market outcomes
8-A countries standard of living is based on its ability to produce goods and services
9-Prices rise when the government prints too much money
10-Society faces a short run trade off between unemployment and inflation

That stated - the govt is overlooking rules 2, 4, 6 & 8. Number 7 is only true if all of these other rules are taken into account. The reason we haven't gone farther down this road on our own as consumers, is because as a whole, the consumers in this country didn't want it (we keep buying trucks and SUVs). The consumer market over the past 10 years (for autos) has been more concerned with technology than gas mileage. Believe me, if Ford new it could make a bigger profit from smaller more fuel efficient cars it would! The idea that they are mandating operations of an industry to combat the oil issue is idiocy. Take care of the bigger issues.

I'd you need an example of price capping, check out the stats on rent control in NY and how it has effected that economy.

Diatribe over.

 

[jeepdreamer]

You forgot rule 11...
When a society fails to hold its leaders in account or elects those that are popular but not qualified...bad ju-ju happens. (that's an official rule by the way... heehee!)

 

[Dan Grec]

Believe me, if Ford new it could make a bigger profit from smaller more fuel efficient cars it would!

The front page of ford.com very prominently has "Up to 40MPG" on the Focus and "Up to 33mpg" on the Escape.
(There are no trucks on the front page)

When you click "Trucks" and see the F-150, it lists price, seating capacity and MPG.
I read into that MPG is now a more important consideration than towing capacity, even on the F-150.

Even Jeep ads on TV now clearly say/show the MPG rating. It absolutely was not the case 10 years ago.

-Dan

 

[haven]

VW is showing a development vehicle that gets 275 mpg. It's a diesel-electric hybrid that weighs less than 2000 lb. Volvo is showing an XC60 (a station wagon with raised suspension, about the size of a Subaru Outback) with gas-electric hybrid and AWD that gets better than 80 mpg.

So let's not say that a 40 mpg fleet average is beyond the reach of today's technologies.

 

[JLH9]

The front page of ford.com very prominently has "Up to 40MPG" on the Focus and "Up to 33mpg" on the Escape.
(There are no trucks on the front page)

When you click "Trucks" and see the F-150, it lists price, seating capacity and MPG.
I read into that MPG is now a more important consideration than towing capacity, even on the F-150.

Even Jeep ads on TV now clearly say/show the MPG rating. It absolutely was not the case 10 years ago.

-Dan

Dan

Agreed it is MORE important, I never said wasn't important, I just said the market would define how important it is, and you just proved my point.

10 years ago MPG was a non issue now it is at the top of the list on Fords website. And the government didn't even have to tell them to do it, they did it without the government input.

I had a civic in the late nineties that did 40+ on the highway, I know this stuff is possible and probably doable in a relatively quick fashion. But if you have noticed, the prices of cars and trucks have gone up faster than inflation. That is our fault as consumers because we kept asking for more fancy gadgets in our vehicles etc. So based on that, do you think that car companies are going to cut fuel economy by cutting all of this heavy luxuries, no. How about cutting other weight, that's really expensive. Or maybe add a new smaller car to the lineup and take away an extra SUV to balance out the average, great now they need more research and development for a new vehicle, train workers to build and service it, stock/design new parts, repurpose plants, maintain the stock of parts for that discontinued SUV and continue to service it - all of that costs money. And some of that has already been happening (Ford, Nissan). But it is at a pace that the companies are comfortable with, because the demand asked the market for supply and the car companies started to give that supply. My point is that there are too many variables in running a business for the government to take into account, these businesses have employees that are experts at this, but people who aren't even in business much less the auto industry some how think they know better than the market. The US auto market has 300+ million people in it (all the US). Can a couple with no experience really think they know better than literally everyone else?

Anyway- I'll try not to get any more worked up. Great conversation everyone! And I would love a Diesel!

 

[MicroBird]

How do you feel about the national "do-not-call-list" ?
Think about all those poor telemarketers who were put out business and can't feed their families now, just because the government stepped in.

Sometimes, the government needs to step in and make regulations for the greater good of all. It was decided that stopping people making invasive telephone calls to your home at family time was more important than those people making a living.

It's the same with the truckers - making sure we all have breathable air is more important.

-Dan

P.S. Now think about that with people who used to sell and/or install asbestos for a living.

It must be nice to live in the LaLa Land of Milk and Honey. What's the address? I think I want to move there too. Will they accept someone coming from reality?

 

[Plannerman]

I think what he is saying is that he doesn't like the way these things are implemented with no care about how it effects the consumer. Case in point are the new emissions standards for big trucks. Hundreds of thousands of truckers who own and maintain their fleets are going out of business because they cant afford to buy the new truck that the government tells them they have to drive because their old one is too dirty. The reason that these trucks are so expensive is because the emissions requirements went from nil to super stringent in such a short period of time and the older vehicles are not exempt. They must be taken off the road or retrofitted at an extreme cost. This kind of government intervention with people's livelihoods is too much and needs to be reigned in.

Did you ever stop to consider that we are subsidizing these trucking operations with our health? I live in an area with some of the worst PM pollution in the country (which comes from diesel exhaust). Those older trucks are allowed to pollute for free, but my community bears the cost of the pollution with our health. I would gladly pay more for goods that come from cleaner transport if I didn't have to worry about my young son developing asthma or other respiratory diseases like so many other children in the area. And I have no problem pushing for higher mileage standards for cars as our country spends a boat load of money on defense just so we can have reliable access to oil.

But, more importantly, a higher mileage vehicle means I can travel further and stay on the trail longer! :smiley_drive:

 

[Dan Grec]

It must be nice to live in the LaLa Land of Milk and Honey. What's the address? I think I want to move there too. Will they accept someone coming from reality?

Canada :sombrero:

Seriously though, what part of my comment about sometimes needing government regulations, even when they have impacts far and wide sounded like la la land?

-Dan

 

[MicroBird]

Canada :sombrero:

Seriously though, what part of my comment about sometimes needing government regulations, even when they have impacts far and wide sounded like la la land?

-Dan

What mileage standards do Canadian car manufacturers have to deal with? What is the name of of Canadian car companies anyway?

 

[Dan Grec]

What mileage standards do Canadian car manufacturers have to deal with? What is the name of of Canadian car companies anyway?

There are extremely few vehicles that have ever been released in Canada that don't meet US standards for mileage, emissions, crash safety, etc. etc.

For all intents and purposes, vehicles in Canada *are* US vehicles, meeting the same identical regulations.

-Dan