Diesel Conversion Options for Expo Rig

[redthies]

Can anyone confirm what kind of diesel is most prevalent in central and south america as far as getting parts?

No ULSD in Mexico last time I was there. No passenger vehicles sold there with diesel power either, afaik... So finding parts may be a hassle. One would hope you would make it south of Mexico without mechanical issues however, if South America is the goal!

I would go to the expeditions in progress section and search for "unurban". Send a PM to Espin and Malin. They did Alaska to Patagonia in a diesel Nissan Patrol last year. They are currently doing Cape Town to Europe on their way back to Norway. DO NOT start reading their thread unless you have a day off. It is awesome!

 

[esh]

Recommend learning to weld. It's fun, you get to make thing with fire!, it opens up many options, and you can fix things on your trip. Gives a nice confidence boost. Even a DC based Ready Welder would work for day to day use both at home and on the road.

 

[78ScoutII]

Recommend learning to weld. It's fun, you get to make thing with fire!, it opens up many options, and you can fix things on your trip. Gives a nice confidence boost. Even a DC based Ready Welder would work for day to day use both at home and on the road.

I agree! The more research I do into this conversion the more I think it will be a necessity to learn. What kind a machine would I have to have to do the type of welding that would be required for the engine mounts, ect.? Like I mentioned I have time to learn as my wife won't even think about letting me take the kids into central and s. america until they are a little older, lol. Just not sure how long it would take to gain the skill it trequires to take on something like this.

 

[78ScoutII]

Thank you all for the input.....i've narrowed it down to two choices with the help of your input.

Short term option - If I wanted to get out there ASAP with a diesel: Find a donor 6.2/tranny/t/c combo out of a donor truck and might be able to mate it up to my existing axles (still questions about my stock 44's holding up to increased engine weight?).
PRO's - possibly not as expensive long term, parts less expensive, quicker turn-around time, possible less fabrication.
CON's - not quite my ideal for longevity or setup, more money up front right away.

Long term option - If I wanted to run my ideal setup: Learn to weld while continuing to save money for build, slowly purchase a b3.3t or 4db1t diesel, tranny, and t/c as funds/deals are available.
PRO's - Learn to weld, gain experience on what goes into a major project like this and the research required to know exactly how all of this needs to go together, my ideal setup that would have exactly the kind of economy and longevity I want, reuse my axles, can spread out the cost over the life of the build.
CON's - more expensive long term, parts more expensive, longer turn-around time, engines not as readily available

EDIT - And no I am not ignoring all those advising against the diesel conversion, definitely valid points that I am strongly considering but If I choose the diesel route then the I believe the above are my best options.

 

[ExpoMike]

You can typically take classes at community college or adult evening school. It really helps to teach you the basics and then it's practice, practice, practice.

As for a welder, I have both a 110v and 220v welders. For what you are looking to do, a 220V rig is what you need. It will offer the higher amperage to get good penetration on thicker steel. I am looking to consolidate to one and looking at the Millermatic 211 as I need to be able to do sheet metal and this unit will run on 110 or 220. If you only ever plan to do 1/4" and thicker, the Millermatic 212 would be the one I would get.

Good luck.

 

[Rot Box]

There's a few guy's out there running the 6.9-7.3 International IDI in their Scouts. That would be my choice if I was building one (in my humble bias opinion). IH in an IH = Match made in heaven :bike_rider:

 

[esh]

A community college class would be a great way to go. Safety is covered and you likely get access to a few different welding machines before you commit to your own. I have a Miller DVI2 that can use 110 or 220.

The Ready Welder 2 can also be used as a home setup. A local friend with a metal fab business sells them and is a fan. It isn't as finely tunable as a traditional unit but can do very well. There is a good writeup on Pirate - http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/Readywelder/ The main advantage I would see is if you got one for home use, you'd be a pro with it on the road.

For the engine setups, I can comment on my experiences.

I have owned or driven most of the pre electronic diesels Toyota has made, and they are fantastic motors. They are not ideal motors for cost or parts availability unless you are into the Toyota community. What I have found is that a turbo is almost a necessity and no matter the 4 cylinder, it will not move a loaded truck as easily as an I6 (so I would stay away from I4s). For a very stock setup truck without added weight, a turbo I4 works well. When you start adding weight, it slows down pretty quickly.

I am building a Toy pickup with a Mercedes I5 turbo. No practical experience but I think it will be a solid solution when it's going. I think Mercedes was a common diesel in SA but have no first hand experience.

Friends locally have the 4bt and 4db1t in their FJ60 Land Cruisers. They are both good motors but because of weight and large tires (36" and 39" on the two trucks, and both loaded with families and gear.. probably 6500-6800lbs) both had to back off long before I did on hills from heat buildup. Mine is an IDI I6 that has an added turbo on 33" tires. Between the two I4 motors, I'd give an edge to the Isuzu but they were pretty similar to each other. I suspect the Cummins can be tuned further and we'll see when he adds a larger turbo and larger injectors.

 

[redveloce]

I eventually decided to go small and light weight for my Wrangler, but in the process I researched all of the options I could find, and if it weren't for the weight the 6.2 would have been a no brainer. Since your vehicle is larger/heavier, the same weight scale concerns don't necessarily apply.

The 6.2 isn't light, but vehicles with them are EVERYWHERE in salvage yards, so ancillaries, brackets, etc are cheap and available. Getting the engine mounted is only half the battle. The biggest pain for me was making accessory brackets so that everything actually lined up and worked. The thing to remember, is that if you're making a custom 1-off part, then you're essentially running a 'test mule' until your part is proven. I can't pretend to be a great fabricator, but I've gone through probably 3 sets of brackets for each component before settling on what I hope will permanently work... If you can pull already engineered and tested parts off of a different vehicle, you will save an unbelievable amount of time and money!

The price of 6.2s isn't even a comparison to the Cummins and Isuzu options. I've seen many good running 6.2 diesels for around $200. You could likely buy a 6.2 and completely rebuild it the way you want for less than the price of a Cummins or Isuzu rebuildable core.

I don't know the parts availability for the GM engines in Central and South America, but if you decide that you want to tackle a commercial engine, like the Isuzu or Cummins, consider a Deutz. They don't necessarily put down the HP numbers, but they make a huge amount of torque, are VERY economical, and are common in South America. I also regularly find them for a fraction of the price of an Isuzu or Cummins. The oddball stuff isn't for everyone, but personally, I'd love not having to deal with coolant! :sombrero:

 

[mcneil]

Thank you all for the input.....i've narrowed it down to two choices with the help of your input.

Short term option - If I wanted to get out there ASAP with a diesel: Find a donor 6.2/tranny/t/c combo out of a donor truck and might be able to mate it up to my existing axles (still questions about my stock 44's holding up to increased engine weight?).
PRO's - possibly not as expensive long term, parts less expensive, quicker turn-around time, possible less fabrication.
CON's - not quite my ideal for longevity or setup, more money up front right away.

Long term option - If I wanted to run my ideal setup: Learn to weld while continuing to save money for build, slowly purchase a b3.3t or 4db1t diesel, tranny, and t/c as funds/deals are available.
PRO's - Learn to weld, gain experience on what goes into a major project like this and the research required to know exactly how all of this needs to go together, my ideal setup that would have exactly the kind of economy and longevity I want, reuse my axles, can spread out the cost over the life of the build.
CON's - more expensive long term, parts more expensive, longer turn-around time, engines not as readily available

EDIT - And no I am not ignoring all those advising against the diesel conversion, definitely valid points that I am strongly considering but If I choose the diesel route then the I believe the above are my best options.

I built a Scout II with a SD33T, used parts from a '72, '74, & '80 to put it together. A well maintained SD33T makes a great driving truck. By the way, good luck finding a well maintained SD33T. They're most common in the 1980 models, and IH kluged them in there mainly because of a strike at their motor plant caused by the impending collapse of the Light Line. The good side is they're no heavier than the 305/345 tractor motors with "INTERNATIONAL" on the valve covers, but the only time I weighed one of those was at a scrapyard. I think a 305 was around 700-800 lbs, which is almost the same as a 6.2.

The problem with the SD33T is that it's not a Cummins, in terms of longevity. That's not to disparage Nissan's engineering, I'm just saying that the SD33T does not have the ridiculous overhaul interval of a Cummins B-series. It's meant to be a lighter, less expensive alternative to those motors in mobile/industrial applications - that was the market it was built for. Expect to find cracked pre-chambers or even whole heads, and a lot of non-uniformity in the accessories. And when you get one, throw the alternator away because it's an oddball externally regulated Nippondenso with an integral vacuum pump, not easy to find. Here comes the welding - you need to make a bracket to hold your internally regulated alternator. Plan on finding a whole Scout donor vehicle for this, since SD33Ts sold individually may be out of a forklift - you need the SAE bellhousing adapater specific to the Scout application.

Best bet for a 6.2 is find a donor blazer or suburban.. but then if you do that, why not just run the blazer or suburban? Parts are infinitely more common and you'll have a more reliable rig. You can do a 90% restoration on a 6.2 blazer for half the cost of a swap project, with no welding. The 6.2 with the Standadyne rotary fuel pump will tolerate a lot of crap for fuel; it's not as bulletproof as a bosch-style inline pump but it can hold its own.

I'm working on my 3rd diesel swap right now (VW TDI into a Jeep TJ), and I can't think of how I could have done any of them without welding. Even with bolt-in engine mounts, there's still bracketry that has to be made & exhaust that has to be routed.

Before getting too far into a 4bt option, I'd say google the reasons not to use that motor in a light truck. It's been done and worked, but I've seen more people abandon that route than complete it. The 4bt may have great longevity, but nothing else on your truck will if it has to share the same frame as that motor.

 

[1leg]

I second a GM LS 5.3 swap. Easy to do in your 5000 budget and still aford a nice new welder. Plus it will save you about $1 gallon on the price over diesel.

 

[1leglance]

When you read the trip reports of actually people who travel Central & South America you hear over and over how they should have spent less money on mods and more on the actual travel.
Unless you are building just to build, then I say put every dollar that would have gone into the build into trips with your kids. You never get those years back and the trip is what they will remember, not the vehicle.

I am doing my build as much as a project with my son who wants to be a mech engineer, he is learning to think through each stage of it. Also we know we won't be doing any big trips until 2014 so we have time. Even with that I keep putting off the start of my conversion just to enjoy the rig as it sits, 10mpg and all as the day trips are worth the time we spend together.

 

[78ScoutII]

I eventually decided to go small and light weight for my Wrangler, but in the process I researched all of the options I could find, and if it weren't for the weight the 6.2 would have been a no brainer. Since your vehicle is larger/heavier, the same weight scale concerns don't necessarily apply.

The 6.2 isn't light, but vehicles with them are EVERYWHERE in salvage yards, so ancillaries, brackets, etc are cheap and available. Getting the engine mounted is only half the battle. The biggest pain for me was making accessory brackets so that everything actually lined up and worked. The thing to remember, is that if you're making a custom 1-off part, then you're essentially running a 'test mule' until your part is proven. I can't pretend to be a great fabricator, but I've gone through probably 3 sets of brackets for each component before settling on what I hope will permanently work... If you can pull already engineered and tested parts off of a different vehicle, you will save an unbelievable amount of time and money!

The price of 6.2s isn't even a comparison to the Cummins and Isuzu options. I've seen many good running 6.2 diesels for around $200. You could likely buy a 6.2 and completely rebuild it the way you want for less than the price of a Cummins or Isuzu rebuildable core.

I don't know the parts availability for the GM engines in Central and South America, but if you decide that you want to tackle a commercial engine, like the Isuzu or Cummins, consider a Deutz. They don't necessarily put down the HP numbers, but they make a huge amount of torque, are VERY economical, and are common in South America. I also regularly find them for a fraction of the price of an Isuzu or Cummins. The oddball stuff isn't for everyone, but personally, I'd love not having to deal with coolant! :sombrero:

The Duetz looks really interesting, heard of them but never knew much about them.

 

[78ScoutII]

No worries, I'm not letting this project get in the way of travelling or doing stuff with the kids. We take many camping trips/adventures throughout the year in our 4 cyl. mazda tribute. This is more for a better DD rig for me, chance to learn to weld, and i really enjoy wrenching on my scout. For the type of trips we take with the kids right now the mazda is fine. With this swap I am looking down the road when we can become more adventurous with our travels and range/realiability/ruggedness starts becoming more important.

 

[rxinhed]

Our '05 GMC 1500 Crewcab 2wd has the 5.3L engine, it's fantastic. I've towed our horse trailer over the Sierra numerous times at about 15 mpg. Empty, going down I-5 at cruising speeds, we've had almost 22 mpg.

 

[RMP&O]

Like everybody keeps saying, you need to be able to weld. And you need to be able to weld good. Booger welds on engine mounts are a not a good thing.

Forget about what diesel has the best parts supply in Latin America. Most of them are Toyotas and Nissans and most of those are small. Not to mention you can have a part drop shipped to anywhere in the world these days. Plus a good diesel is not going to need much besides oil changes while on your 20-30,000 mile trip.

I would go 6bt but only the earlier 12v version. The 4bt is to small in my opinion along with other issues.

I wouldn't touch the 6.2 or 6.5. it is just not a very good motor to warrant the effort, work and expense of a swap.

The SD33T is a good motor. I have several of them including one built way beyond what anybody else has done. You shouldn't toss much over 15psi at them though. They are prone to crack heads and they can run hot. This is easily solved by having a nice big cooling system in top order. You can find plenty of examples of the SD33T doing over 500,000k's before rebuilds in Australia. Stock they run 7-11psi depending on what version you have.

Here you can see me working on fitting an SD33T to a project, engine mounts and trans mounts are coming very soon,

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/70064-RMP-amp-Os-1977-Patrol-Ute-build-for-overlanding

here you can see the built SD33T I have that is going into another truck...

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/75518-The-Mongrel-FJ62-body-FZJ80-chassis-turbo-diesel

If it was me and I was not feeling real confident, I would put the SD33T into the Scout. If I was willing to do more and spend more, I would go the 6bt. Some Toyota diesel are great engines but not worth the expense in my opinion. We are talking $5-15k for a used motor simply because of supply and demand. No matter what diesel you use you want a low mileage one with a known history or you are going to want to tear into it a bit and see what the condition of the motor is in. That is if you are going to take your kids to Latin America and you are concerned if the motor will fail you.

Don't swap in a diesel if you are doing it to gain fuel mileage. As already said, the cost of the swap compared to fuel savings will take many years to balance out. I also agree the 5.3/4L60 is a great combo. One of the best v8's and cheapest swaps you can get/do. But it is a modern computer controller engine. if you want v8 with lot's of power, modern fuel injection and keep it simple. The Ramjet is the best choice in my opinion because it is super simple, easy to work on and use most 350 Chevy parts. $10 thermostat at Napa for example. Thing is it is only available in crate form and runs about $4,000.

Oh and in case you didn't know...IHonly sells an adapter kit to fit the nv4500 trans behind the SD33T.

Cheers