discovery I engine swap

[AndrewP]

Well--I don't know if you're referring to me, but while I am a Toyota fan, I did not dis Rover at all. I just said the 2F was a good motor, but I also said that if I had the circumstances of the original poster, that I would rebuild the Rover motor.

Additionally we have at least 2 Rover dudes that go with us on desert runs. While we may josh them about their choice of vehicle around the fire, it's hardly serious.

Anyway, maybe don't be so sensitive, I love the idea and history of that Dormobile Rover. And no, I wouldn't put a SBC or a 2F in it!

 

[Alaska Mike]

There are two giants in the expedition world- Toyota and Land Rover. It's only natural that their fans would bump heads from time to time. Each has their pluses and minuses. We see all sorts of swaps of Toyota swaps into Rovers, but we also see all sorts of Ford, Chevy, and even... Mercedes swaps into the Land Rover platforms. If it makes the iconic expedition vehicles last a little longer and keeps them from being crushed so China can make cheap knockoffs for Walmart- I'm all for it.

The Toyota axles have many benefits for Series Rovers, mainly because they're widely available, strong, relatively cheap, require little modification, have the option for factory e-lockers (with a little swapping), and offer disc brakes. The cost of building a Rover axle to that sort of durability and functionality is a bit more, although it certainly can and is done.

To be honest, I don't see many people seriously trumpeting Toyota engines as a great swap into Rovers, or any other platform. They do what they do in their original platforms, but when people think swap, they don't immediately run to Toyota. Likewise, I don't see Rover engines as a good swap outside of the platform.

In the case of modern Rovers, often the most economical/sensible replacement is... another Rover engine. As Oilburner mentioned, even those can be an involved and protracted process. Again, the worth of the swap is ultimately decided by the owner, and rarely do they make financial sense in terms of MPG. The math just doesn't add up. However, sometimes the added capabilities tip the scale. Being able to tow, keep up with traffic, or even crest a hill is a major accomplishment that justifies it for some. The Rover V-8s don't seem to have a problem with those tasks, so it comes back to economy and durability, which can be mitigated somewhat through a thorough refurbishment.

I still like the idea of the 4.3L swap. That's just me, though...

 

[Alaska Mike]

...I love the idea and history of that Dormobile Rover. And no, I wouldn't put a SBC or a 2F in it!

But Ford engines and transmissions are OK?

TeriAnn's Dormobile is a prime example of building a vehicle to match your personal requirements. Visit her site and see the progression from a neglected pile to what it is today (http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/GRhistory.htm). I get the idea she is nearly as thrilled about the tea rack over the rear door as any other modification- it's a personal touch that tunes the vehicle to her needs, instead of a mass-produced, mass-marketed product that meets some of the needs of most of the people. That's my inspiration for my own build, although the chances of me being able to tweak the design as well are minimal. Nice to have goals, though...

 

[revor]

:lurk:

I don't think the Toy guys are here to bash, they're just as enthusistic about their toys as we are.

Realistically though, I mentioned in my first post unless you have the tools and skills to do the job yourself it's rarely worth the effort to completely re engineer a vehicle to fit even if it came with one from the factory for a different market. Like J-L said even sticking a 200Tdi in a Disco is a ton of work, the car came with one for another market.

That said there are also "special" reasons you might want to do this. You love your car, it just plain needs more power, ore you want better fuel economy, But be prepared to pay..

Ask TeriAnn, J-L or even myself (and dozens of others) you have to be commited to the project (or we just need to be commited) It's a lot of work.

Why a TD5 in a Disco one? I wanted one, I liked the thought.
Why spend thousands making a 4.0 Rover V8 into a 5.0, I figured it would be fun to see how well it goes.
Why a 302 in My 109? That is TeriAnn's fault...
And
Just Why Am a contemplateing a 6BT in my 110? ASK J-L

 

[TeriAnn]

But Ford engines and transmissions are OK?

TeriAnn's Dormobile is a prime example of building a vehicle to match your personal requirements.

You gotta remember I did not start out with a factory land Rover Dormobile. I started out with a broken down, worn out land Rover 109 pickup , missing a lot of parts,that had been sitting under some trees for a few years being used as a children's playground. This was back in the days when Series Land Rovers had no resale value. I paid $350 so I could tow it home and try to get it fixed enough to run. And at the time I thought I paid a premium price for what I got.

The Green Rover in March 1978 right after I towed her home​

There are thousands of hours labour and about 500,000 miles driven between that land Rover 30 years ago and the one I drive today. And yes I took a vehicle that was past due for the scrap yard and made it mine.

The Green Rover in 1996 when I brought the Dormobile kit home​

I get the idea she is nearly as thrilled about the tea rack over the rear door as any other modification- it's a personal touch that tunes the vehicle to her needs, instead of a mass-produced, mass-marketed product that meets some of the needs of most of the people.

The tea cabinet is great! Dry tea, easy to get to while heating water. In normally wasted space. As a tea drinker I agree it is an important modification.

Here's another important modification I made earlier this year:

I carefully chose the pieces of oak for the knife holder, cut them to size, glued them together and stained it so my knives would have a better storage location.

No, this was no rare limited edition Land Rover to be carefully preserved. But she is a custom one off with a long history and a lot of miles under her frame.

it's a personal touch that tunes the vehicle to her needs, instead of a mass-produced, mass-marketed product that meets some of the needs of most of the people. That's my inspiration for my own build, although the chances of me being able to tweak the design as well are minimal. Nice to have goals, though...

Thanks. It took a lot of years and a lot of thought for her to evolve to closely meed my personal wants for a long range expedition vehicle. The first 15 years were spent focused on my truck being an efficient farm truck and only during the last 15 did she start evolving into a expedition camper. And there were a few things done that didn't work out and needed rethinking.

I don't think the Toy guys are here to bash, they're just as enthusistic about their toys as we are.

I've no problem with their feelings. I just wish there would express them someplace other than the Land Rover specific section of the forum. It seems anytime anyone says something about a Land Rover, someone else needs to pipe in saying how much better a Toyota is. It a broken record with the "get a toy whatever" line going over and over. I just wish they would have the courtesy to play their broken record elsewhere. maybe they can be enthusiastic about Toys in the Toy section. I just think it is rude, that's all.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I've no problem with their feelings. I just wish there would express them someplace other than the Land Rover specific section of the forum. It seems anytime anyone says something about a Land Rover, someone else needs to pipe in saying how much better a Toyota is. It a broken record with the "get a toy whatever" line going over and over. I just wish they would have the courtesy to play their broken record elsewhere. maybe they can be enthusiastic about Toys in the Toy section. I just think it is rude, that's all.

The only reason they're here is that they are attracted to the Land Rover mystique. I think few of us would argue against the merits of Toyotas, but I've never really found them to be my cup of tea. The styling never really did it for me- I find them for the most part soulless. Hard-working, durable, and well designed, yes, but it isn't a Rover. That's my opinion, and yours may vary. I've never lusted over any of the FJs like I have a Series Rover or one of the Camel Trophy rigs. I blame Scott's influence. To be fair, he still lusts after 70 series Toyotas though...

I see no problem with swapping for a superior part (no matter who the manufacturer is), as long as the vehicle is still a Rover. Where that point lies is an individual decision. So far, my project has parts from a '90s Jeep YJ (engine), '70s GMC Truck (transmission), '60s Scout 80 (transfercase), '70s Scout II (power steering)... I don't think it will stop there. It will still be a Rover to me. At the end of the day, that's what matters.

 

[Alaska Mike]

I know we have veered waaaaaay off the original thread, but I just wanted to mention that every time I see a new photo of the inside of TeriAnn's Dormobile, I just get the feeling that it's someplace you can live in. Little touches here and there show that she has lived there, and has adjusted it in countless ways to make the living all the more rewarding. Quite frankly, I'm envious and in awe. I imagine I'm not alone.

Anyway.... what was the question again?...

 

[AndrewP]

The only reason they're here is that they are attracted to the Land Rover mystique. .

Not really. Speaking for myself, I sometimes read the Rover section just to see what alternatives are out there. As off roaders, we all face the same problems, but often overcome them in very different ways.

For instance, Rover people, in general, like skinny tires. Toyota guys, in general, like wide ones.

Rover people like Husky winches, Toyota guys like 8274s.

Rover guys like Buick small block V-8s, Toyota guys like straight 6s.

It's the differences that are interesting, and reasons for those differences is the place to learn something new.

If you were starting with an old leaf spring truck of either marque and swapping suspensions, transmissions, motors etc, what you end with is basically the same whether it's got an Toyota body or a Rover body. I have no dislike for Rovers, but I rode in a Land Cruiser for the first time in 1974, and haven't strayed far from Toyota since.

back once again to the original poster--In a modern fuel injected truck like the Disco I, anything other than an original motor will involve rewiring and replumbing the whole truck. That's probably is not worth it. Installing another Rover motor or rebuilding the original would be a straight forward, easy hook up proposition, unless the original wiring is already out of the truck. In the Toyota world, it's common to just find a running motor from a rusted out and scrapped truck and install in lieu of a rebuild. That always ends up being the least expensive option to get back on the road. Do people do that in Rover land?

 

[Alaska Mike]

Not really. Speaking for myself, I sometimes read the Rover section just to see what alternatives are out there. As off roaders, we all face the same problems, but often overcome them in very different ways.

I made a pretty large generalization there, but I agree with your last statement.

For instance, Rover people, in general, like skinny tires. Toyota guys, in general, like wide ones.

I think that's more of a function of what works in certain kinds of terrain and what will fit under the sheetmetal with the available lifts and won't affect the turning radius. Also, Rovers look better with skiiny tires. Scientific fact.

Rover people like Husky winches, Toyota guys like 8274s.

I've seen a lot of Superwinches as well, probably because of the Camel Trophy connection. I've also seen a whole lot of 8274s on Series rigs and competition Rovers. Ever seen the Gigglepin modifications? My 8274-50 will be between the framerails of my Rover.

Rover guys like Buick small block V-8s, Toyota guys like straight 6s.

I think it's a stretch to say Rover guys like the Buick V-8. They have the Buick V-8 because that's what was installed from the factory. I think they would have been overjoyed if Ford installed one of their 5.0L engines or a solid V-6 in the Rover. It's not a bad engine, but the design is a bit dated. I've also seen far more FJs running around with V-8s than the original six cylinders. Jeep seems to claim more of the inline 6 crowd, since their engine was lighter, more powerful, and certainly longer-lived in one incarnation or another.

It's the differences that are interesting, and reasons for those differences is the place to learn something new.

There we are in complete agreement.

If you were starting with an old leaf spring truck of either marque and swapping suspensions, transmissions, motors etc, what you end with is basically the same whether it's got an Toyota body or a Rover body.

To an extent I agree, but you're talking about different rigs in terms of weight, wheelbase, and driving characteristics. It's what separates a Jeep from a Toyota from a Rover from a Scout from a Bronco. Until you get to the rock buggy stage, they're all very different.

back once again to the original poster--In a modern fuel injected truck like the Disco I, anything other than an original motor will involve rewiring and replumbing the whole truck. That's probably is not worth it. Installing another Rover motor or rebuilding the original would be a straight forward, easy hook up proposition, unless the original wiring is already out of the truck. In the Toyota world, it's common to just find a running motor from a rusted out and scrapped truck and install in lieu of a rebuild. That always ends up being the least expensive option to get back on the road. Do people do that in Rover land?

I think you'll find more and more modern Rover owners doing this, as machine shop rates rise and more Rovers hit the scrapyard prematurely. The one thing different for Toyotas is their engines last longer than their bodies, so finding a scrapyard 22R is a much simpler proposition. Also, the guy who paid $40K for a Disco back in 2004 has probably moved on to another vehicle by the time it hits 50K, and is less likely to be around to do an engine swap. It's the 2nd or 3rd owner that usually contemplates this, when the vehicle is worth around $10K or less. More often than not, they head to the scrap heap as the cost of repairs climbs and the resale value plummets. We're talking about a premium marque here (at least in the US). We're just starting to see them hitting the offroad world in any numbers, based on their capabilities and deflated market value. We saw the same thing with the Grand Cherokees and other luxo utes of the '90s. It's very different to bash around a $40K rig than a $5K rig.

We had a local guy prepping a Disco I for the Rainforest Challenge and Outback Challenge (Australia), and his priorities were very different from the average suburbanite, even though they started with essentially the same vehicle. He ripped out literally miles of wire and comfort related items. The sunroof was replaced with thick lexan riveted to the hole (no leaks there) and the interior was gutted to provide as much cargo room as possible. I think he's running 37" Boggers now. I think the original owner would have fainted at the sight of the vehicle now.

 

[LC/LR4Life]

I'm getting soooo tired of this.

I've never understood why a bunch of Toyota fans hang out in the Land Rover section to very actively promote Toyota products and trash Land Rover products. I thought there was a section for Toy 4X4's and a Separate section for land Rover discussions.

Its kinda like having Seventh Day Adventists knocking on your door all the time trying to convince you that you have the wrong religion.

Why don't you guys just quietly watch us poor misguided Land Rover types go our own misguided way way in peace without evangelizing your rice burners and putting down our tea & crumpet burners???? If evangelizing Toy 4X4s & trashing Land Rovers makes you happy, why not do it in the Toy section?

Let us have our poor delusional fantasies that Land Rovers are good expedition vehicles in peace and please spare us from your feelings of product superiority.

It is not polite to build your marque up by putting another marque down.

Please, give us a break

You're nutty. Being I have had two Land Cruisers, and two Land Rovers I think I can speak wherever I wish! Of the two Rovers, the Disco has been perfect with no complaints. The P38 Range Rover however has been a constant problematic vehicle that I would wish on no-one. My 1978 FJ40 Land Cruiser with 2F engine has 400,000 + miles on it, and I expect very similar dependability out of my 2004 Land Cruiser. It's all regular maintenance on Land Cruisers, but not necessarily on a Rover vehicle. Otherwise, why are so many Rover owners looking at other companies engines, transmissions, or axles??? Let's get real, I love the Rovers, especially the RR Classic is my favorite but they are hardly as dependable as the Toyotas.

 

[TeriAnn]

Originally Posted by TeriAnn

I've never understood why a bunch of Toyota fans hang out in the Land Rover section to very actively promote Toyota products and trash Land Rover products.

You're nutty.

<<SNIP>>

Let's get real, I love the Rovers, especially the RR Classic is my favorite but they are hardly as dependable as the Toyotas.

I've always aspired to eccentric, but obviously I haven't arrived yet.

But here you are in the LR section, actively promoting Toyota products and trashing Land Rovers.

Oh well it seems to be the the normal mode of behavior in the Land Rover section of the forum. I guess I should adjust to the social "norms".

I once came across a person who had their perfect solution. I pulled into a gas station and parked my 109 next to a FJ40 that was rebadged as a Land Rover. All the Toyota badging was removed and substituted with Series Land Rover badges. His solution to giving his Toyota some charisma.

 

[MattScott]

I once came across a person who had their perfect solution. I pulled into a gas station and parked my 109 next to a FJ40 that was rebadged as a Land Rover. All the Toyota badging was removed and substituted with Series Land Rover badges. His solution to giving his Toyota some charisma.

I hope this guy also replaced his engine with that of a freelanders'

 

[TeriAnn]

I hope this guy also replaced his engine with that of a freelanders'

As far as I remember it was a stock appearing FJ40, but understand I don't have much of a clue as to what is stock for one, nor do I care. It was the badging that I really noticed. For many people who read this forum section it was the perfect Land Rover.

This happened in the late 1980's (Santa Cruz 76 Union station at Soquel & highway #1)

 

[Hltoppr]

As for the original question, anything is possible, with time and money. For the money, rebuilding the original rover V8 is likely the best bet. When you swap and engine, the next thing to ask yourself is "what is now the weakest link."

More often than not, the entire drivetrain becomes questionable. (I did this with an old Wrangler.) When you add up the costs...might as well just buy a newer rig with the power you'd like.

This month's Land Rover World magazine has a nice article on a 4bt conversion into a D90; but I'd think doing this in a Disco, with the additional electronics, would be a PITA.

So...my .02...rebuild the original motor, or just get a long/short block from LR.

....btw....as a Toyota owner...I absolutely love rovers, and enjoy coming here to see what ya'll (Especially TeriAnn) have done to make them into the wonderfully personalized expedition rigs they are. If the interior of my troopy could ever look half as cool as TA's dormobile.....:bowdown:

-H-

 

[Yorker]

Originally Posted by TeriAnn

I've never understood why a bunch of Toyota fans hang out in the Land Rover section to very actively promote Toyota products and trash Land Rover products.
.

And yet there is also a number of Land Rover fans who actively promote Toyota Products in the LR section:

http://rovertracks.com/products/driveline.html

http://seriestrek.com/axles.html
http://seriestrek.com/toyotadiffs.html

Do you have any practical first hand experience with the Buick/Rover v8 vs Toyota 2F? Someone offered his opinion, with regard to a potential engine swap that would offer more long term reliability. The Rover V8 is a neat little lightweight engine but really nothing that outstanding, how many are out there with 250,000 miles on them with nothing more than oil changes?


Like JL and Keith say-an older I6 is impractical for a Discovery, a step backwards given the other alternatives that have become available since ca. 1973 when the 2F emerged- but it doesn't mean that it isn't an excellent engine, nor does it mean that the fellow who suggested it was running down Land Rovers as a whole.

You yourself are running around with a T18 and 302 so why jump over someone else who has suggested another alternative swap for somebody else's truck? If reliability, long term parts availability, fuel economy and power are someone's criteria for a swap then they certainly can do better than the Rover V8- The only real question would be the overall practicality of any engine swap given the owner's expected use of the vehicle. If someone has a disco and they want to try and keep it for the next 40 years here in North America there are a lot of viable alternatives that may offer them more than the old 4.0l.

Personally I'd like a 5.0l Ford in a Disco- though that would also almost assuredly require something other than the original ZF HP-22 or R-380 tranny, while I am dreaming it would also be kind of nice to replace the Rover diffs with Ford 9 inchers... Does that mean I am a Ford guy in here bashing Land Rovers? Or does the fact that I am a Land Rover person who can appreciate the strengths of other brand's components absolve me of that sin?