Do you feel the need to be upset when you encounter an armed camper in the woods?

Dalko43

Explorer
The problem is three-fold as I see it.
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1. Criminal gun violence--tough laws that are actually enforced for gun violence--I can easily make a machine gun and I want to make a machine gun. The ONLY reason that I don't have several is due to the NFA--10k and 10 years automatically with no questions asked....ouch. No thanks. As stated already in the thread--strictly enforce the laws we have upon those who break them, do not make more laws that only affect law abiding citizens.

Criminal gun violence has always been an issue; that problem isn't new. "Enforcing the existing gun laws" is something that the pro-2nd camp has been arguing for a while now. Laws should target the criminals, not the law-abiding. As well, you need to be more strict over-all with repeat offenders (who are often the ones most likely to commit a gun crime); the problem is this principle conflicts directly with many advocacy efforts to reduce or even eliminate punishment for the so-called "petty" criminals. That part of the problem has a solution; it remains to be seen whether or not the public will force politicians to act on it.

2. Accidental/negligent discharge--there is no reason to not teach firearm safety in the public schools. This is not a 100% solution as not all kids go to public school, some parents might object and keep their kids out of that class, etc. However, an easy thing to do that WILL result in less people accidentally killed should be done.

I roll my eyes every time this "issue" is brought up. Not because I believe that firearm safety isn't important; it is important. But by and large, a lack of firearm safety isn't the main reason we are seeing all of this gun violence. Gun safety and education at the local and community level (think clubs, local law enforcement, parents, ect.) is a good thing, and generally-speaking it's being emphasized quite well. I certainly wouldn't mind if schools pitched in and did some safety courses as well, but given the current political environment I don't think certain advocacy groups would be too happy about that.

3. Mass shootings--this is multifaceted; I'll restrict my comments to the juvenile shooters as criminal and terror based shootings occur worldwide and are not connected with our 2nd amendment rights. (yes I realize that shooting your classmates is against the law and therefore criminal....moving on). I think education is the key solution here. Today's teens are subject to immensely more social pressure than past generations. They are also not taught logic, critical thinking, and rhetoric in school. They are instead taught to follow their emotions, follow their heart, and express themselves however they want to--all very noble until their emotions and heart lead them to expressing themselves with violence.

Mass shootings and gun violence are one in the same. Stat-wise, all the big newspapers like to lump them together into one category (anything more than 3-4 people shot = a mass shooting according to some arbitrary definition) for obvious reasons. I do agree that the criminal motivation and intent for certain lone-wolf shooters and say a gang gunfight may differ, but at the end of the day they're all criminals and need to be treated accordingly. There is no easy answer to this problem.

Firstly, parents and local community reps (teachers, coaches, ect.) need to take responsibility for their kids and supervise their mental and physical health. As it is, we have way too many kids growing up obese and possibly diabetic because parents are too stupid or unwilling to tell them to get off their butts and play. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that certain adolescent teens and young adults are so alienated and anti-social that they are willing to commit a murder spree.

Secondly, the only reason schools are such a big target for mass shootings is because the shooters know that there will be little to no opposition there. You don't hear of many mass shootings at police station or gun convention. Lone-wolf shooters want to make a statement; they're not looking for a fight. Putting armed security (cops, private security, screened CCW holders) in a school would be the most effective way to significantly reduce school shootings. City schools already figured this out a while ago. For some reason politics has dissuaded many suburban schools from following suit.

It's really hard (arguably impossible) to screen and catch every criminal (whether it be a mentally-ill lone-wolf shooter, a religious extremist, or a criminal seeking retribution). It's not very hard to make their intended targets hard so that these would-be attackers go elsewhere or forgo their planned attack all-together.

So, circling back around to the school shooters--the previously mentioned weapons safety classes could help, engaged parenting is critical, and giving kids the tools to deal with the stresses of the modern era is a step in the right direction.

That last part right there is truly missing from a large part of this ongoing "gun debate." People, especially parents, need to get involved and police their own.
 
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Klierslc

Explorer
I meant to mention school security but got stuck on my logic soapbox--thanks for bringing that up--when I retire I plan on volunteering as an armed guard at any local school district that will have me. It will be a quite a few years though, so hopefully we won't still have the issue.
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Well stated! As I have said before, I am one of the staunchest 2nd amendment supporters out there--I am also a pragmatist. The uneducated masses have the power to change our rights--burying our heads in the sand and mumbling about how...arms....infringed....aliens...libertude....etc does not solve the problem. Instead of focusing our efforts on beating the "shall not be infringed" drum we need to focus on solving the problem--then there will be no reason to assault our rights.

The problem is three-fold as I see it.
.
.
1. Criminal gun violence--tough laws that are actually enforced for gun violence--I can easily make a machine gun and I want to make a machine gun. The ONLY reason that I don't have several is due to the NFA--10k and 10 years automatically with no questions asked....ouch. No thanks. As stated already in the thread--strictly enforce the laws we have upon those who break them, do not make more laws that only affect law abiding citizens.
.
.
2. Accidental/negligent discharge--there is no reason to not teach firearm safety in the public schools. This is not a 100% solution as not all kids go to public school, some parents might object and keep their kids out of that class, etc. However, an easy thing to do that WILL result in less people accidentally killed should be done.

3. Mass shootings--this is multifaceted; I'll restrict my comments to the juvenile shooters as criminal and terror based shootings occur worldwide and are not connected with our 2nd amendment rights. (yes I realize that shooting your classmates is against the law and therefore criminal....moving on). I think education is the key solution here. Today's teens are subject to immensely more social pressure than past generations. They are also not taught logic, critical thinking, and rhetoric in school. They are instead taught to follow their emotions, follow their heart, and express themselves however they want to--all very noble until their emotions and heart lead them to expressing themselves with violence.
.
I don't pretend to understand this fully, but as I see our younger Marines go through their decision making process, it boggles my mind--the fact that the brain doesn't fully develop till around 25 years old accounts for some of the shenanigans, but not nearly all of them. Older generations had the same tendencies for shenanigans at those ages but were taught to reason things through logically--kids these days do not have those tools. The ability to critically think about a situation, logically work out a solution and then articulate that to someone is a lost art. I include rhetoric in there because of the amount of times I hear "nobody understands me" from kids--if you were taught how to properly express your thoughts, maybe people would understand.
.
So, circling back around to the school shooters--the previously mentioned weapons safety classes could help, engaged parenting is critical, and giving kids the tools to deal with the stresses of the modern era is a step in the right direction.

Gun education in schools? They cant teach the kids how to read or write, yet they want to teach them sex ed, teach them about johnnies two dads, and now gun education? Leave that to the parents.
 

jeep-N-montero

Expedition Leader
Gun education in schools? They cant teach the kids how to read or write, yet they want to teach them sex ed, teach them about johnnies two dads, and now gun education? Leave that to the parents.

So true, but to some extent our children will only do what they are taught or allowed to do by their parents, which may even present the biggest problem given the wimpy society we live in.
 

AzTacoma

Adventurer
Gun education in schools? They cant teach the kids how to read or write, yet they want to teach them sex ed, teach them about johnnies two dads, and now gun education? Leave that to the parents.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with this. Schools touch on a lot of basic safety issues for young kids, I don't see why cursory firearm education couldn't happen. It might even remove some of this stigmas attached to guns in general. It's a right that's in the US Constitution and I think it should be addressed a little deeper in schools. I ran a military club last year at a public high school and I reviewed basic rifle marksmanship, four general rules of handling a firearm, nomenclature, clearing and breaking down a weapon, etc... and then we took a field trip *gasp* to a range and fired a bunch of guns.
 

donaldcon

Adventurer
No I am just not paranoid. Could a gun in a home lead to disaster? Yes but so could going to my child's gun free school, getting on an airplane, or driving down the road on the way to the babysitter.
 
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plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
I don't see anything particularly wrong with this. Schools touch on a lot of basic safety issues for young kids, I don't see why cursory firearm education couldn't happen. It might even remove some of this stigmas attached to guns in general. It's a right that's in the US Constitution and I think it should be addressed a little deeper in schools. I ran a military club last year at a public high school and I reviewed basic rifle marksmanship, four general rules of handling a firearm, nomenclature, clearing and breaking down a weapon, etc... and then we took a field trip *gasp* to a range and fired a bunch of guns.

Gun education in government schools would just turn political. Too many divisive opinions. Just teach to read and write, and show up on time.
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
Burbank CA my family can remember walking to school with a target rifle slung over their shoulder for range class. Umm today is a different world even that family member says no way should todays schools be doing that. Our local small CA town raises about 3million a yr to pay for our school, PE, Music, Library, computer class and the aids at the elementary - junior high levels. We fund on site college prep courses in addition to the extras/ basics including HS sports with that funding also. If we didnt do that our schools would be nothing but bare basics. And would not be listed in the top 50 in the US which are always semi private schools vs our totally public schools.

Two parents with 40+ yrs each teaching along with any edu professional view armed (guards) on campus as some of the dumbest ideas they have seen in decades. Move to Iraq if you want that.
 

SigSense

Adventurer
Criminal gun violence has always been an issue; that problem isn't new. "Enforcing the existing gun laws" is something that the pro-2nd camp has been arguing for a while now. Laws should target the criminals, not the law-abiding. As well, you need to be more strict over-all with repeat offenders (who are often the ones most likely to commit a gun crime); the problem is this principle conflicts directly with many advocacy efforts to reduce or even eliminate punishment for the so-called "petty" criminals. That part of the problem has a solution; it remains to be seen whether or not the public will force politicians to act on it.

Good observation!

Let's not be politically correct (PC) when we discuss facts surrounding gun crimes and just WHO is conducting the majority of it. Any candid debate on guns, crime, race, and justice in this country would have to start with the fact that Blacks commit an astoundingly disproportionate number of crimes. Blacks constitute about 13% of the population, yet between 1976 and 2015 they committed more than half of all murders in the U.S. The Black arrest rate for most offenses including robbery, aggravated assault, and property crimes is typically two to three times their representation in the population (source: FBI Crime Statistics 1976-2015: https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats).

The PC, Left/Liberal-controlled media would have us all believe that gun crime is rampant, when in-fact it is declining. It is on the way down, except in Gun Free Zones. Ain't that weird?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/
http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/07/gun-control-would-address-declining-crim
http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/12/gun-violence-is-actually-declining-in-the-united-states/
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-decline-of-violence/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-to-decline-statscan-reports/article18124398/
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says
 

AzTacoma

Adventurer
Gun education in government schools would just turn political. Too many divisive opinions. Just teach to read and write, and show up on time.

It might. I am not for mandates or anything like that, but what I would like to see are more districts that embrace citizenship education... and with those districts that have a desire, to include some basic 2nd Amendment related education. I don't have a master plan of what that would look like, but what I do know is that our rights and responsibilities must be institutionalized within our greater constitutional order, lest they be lost and/or forgotten.
 

Klierslc

Explorer
Burbank CA my family can remember walking to school with a target rifle slung over their shoulder for range class. Umm today is a different world even that family member says no way should todays schools be doing that. Our local small CA town raises about 3million a yr to pay for our school, PE, Music, Library, computer class and the aids at the elementary - junior high levels. We fund on site college prep courses in addition to the extras/ basics including HS sports with that funding also. If we didnt do that our schools would be nothing but bare basics. And would not be listed in the top 50 in the US which are always semi private schools vs our totally public schools.

Two parents with 40+ yrs each teaching along with any edu professional view armed (guards) on campus as some of the dumbest ideas they have seen in decades. Move to Iraq if you want that.

So, what is your solution to people showing up at your gun free zone and shooting the students and teachers? It has happened enough recently to be a realistic consideration. Also, you paint with a bigger brush than you should--there are many educational professionals that endorse having guns on campus--most colleges have their own police departments--Holy armed guards batman!
 

Klierslc

Explorer
Good observation!

Let's not be politically correct (PC) when we discuss facts surrounding gun crimes and just WHO is conducting the majority of it. Any candid debate on guns, crime, race, and justice in this country would have to start with the fact that Blacks commit an astoundingly disproportionate number of crimes. Blacks constitute about 13% of the population, yet between 1976 and 2015 they committed more than half of all murders in the U.S. The Black arrest rate for most offenses including robbery, aggravated assault, and property crimes is typically two to three times their representation in the population (source: FBI Crime Statistics 1976-2015: https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/crimestats).

The PC, Left/Liberal-controlled media would have us all believe that gun crime is rampant, when in-fact it is declining. It is on the way down, except in Gun Free Zones. Ain't that weird?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-gun-violence-in-the-united-states-heres-why/
http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/07/gun-control-would-address-declining-crim
http://legalinsurrection.com/2015/12/gun-violence-is-actually-declining-in-the-united-states/
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-decline-of-violence/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-to-decline-statscan-reports/article18124398/
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...gun-violence-has-fallen-since-1993-study-says

Meh, take your thinly veiled racism and wall of links elsewhere. No one is saying that gun crime is going up or going down, simply that it is still a problem that bears some scrutiny. You sir, are not part of the solution.
 

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