Electric Cooling Fans

What are the thoughts of removing the belt driven fan and putting in an electric fan. I'm thinking, although I'm no mechanic, that less resistance on the engine... better performance and mileage?
The one for the Xterra Fan
For expedition purposes. Would electric be reliable? Especially with dust and water.

What would you guys suggest?

Gracias,
Scott

EDIT:
I found this on Autozone website.... seems to pull more air through, at the same amperage... and cheaper...
sap67017003.jpg

About this product:
  • Adjustable 180-240 deg. fahrenheit thermostat
  • Pulls up to 2,800 cfm of air, cooling vehicles with up to 250 or more horsepower (without air) and 220 or more horse power (with air)
  • 14 AMP draw
Your stock fan robs your engine of up to 15 or more horsepower! Replace it with a rugged, universal-fit fan equipped with an adjustable 180 - 240 deg. fahrenheit thermostat. Bolts to your radiator supports using sturdy brackets. With a heavy-duty motor, highly angled blades, and 15" diameter, this unit pulls up to 2,800 cfm of air, cooling vehicles with up to 250 + HP (without air) and 220 + HP (with air). Overall: 18" x 16-1/8" x 4". Amp draw, 14 amps.
clearpixel.gif
Part Number:67017Weight:14.3 lbs.
 
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HenryJ

Expedition Leader
I think OEM fans are superior to most of the aftermarket. I would suggest dual fans. Redundancy is a good thing.

Here is my install- LS1 Fan conversion

They offer better cooling at crawl speeds. Control over engagement temperature. Cancellation during water crossings.
Mine have been a very good modification.
Plan on adding a bigger alternator to match the increased electrical load.
 
HenryJ said:
I think OEM fans are superior to most of the aftermarket. I would suggest dual fans. Redundancy is a good thing.

Here is my install- LS1 Fan conversion

They offer better cooling at crawl speeds. Control over engagement temperature. Cancellation during water crossings.
Mine have been a very good modification.
Plan on adding a bigger alternator to match the increased electrical load.

Thanks for the replies. Questions.

Increased electrical load? I know the fan is pulling 14 more amps..... but, is the larger alternator necessary if few other electronics are being used?

I do have 4 roof mounted offroad lights, but frequency of use hardley warrants them being on the roof causing so much extra drag.

questions... questions....
 

Rexsname

Explorer
I removed the stock fan on my Tacoma, worked fine when the air speed through the radiator was good. As long as I was on the road I had no problems. Replaced the belt driven fan with the largest electric one I could find, got real hot off road every time. Then I added an additional electric fan...Still got too hot! The wire insulation was melting and dripping off onto the ground! I went back to the factory set up and have had no cooling problems since doing so.

Stay with what the factory engineers have designed for you!

REX
 

Bob_Sheaves

Observer
Air flow is what is needed to cool an engine in a water to air cooler (radiator) of a given surface area and heat rejection capability. This air flow has a weight (in pounds or kilograms) and must be flowed by whatever method you choose. A common vehicle like a Dodge 4.7L v8 draws roughly 7500cfm of air at peak cooling temps to prevent overheating. This draws approximately 9.6hp from the engine. An electric fan would have to move the same amount of air. There is no "effeciency" gain for being electric over mechanical, so the same amount of power would be drawn from the electric motor. How many electric fans do you see that have a 10hp motor on them? (just kidding-you will not find any)

In simple terms, an electric fan MAY (not will) boost the airflow of an existing cooling system with a mechanical fan, but they are marginal at best for street driven vehicles without a mechanical fan. Electric fans have no business on an off highway vehicle by themselves.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com
 
Bob_Sheaves said:
In simple terms, an electric fan MAY (not will) boost the airflow of an existing cooling system with a mechanical fan, but they are marginal at best for street driven vehicles without a mechanical fan. Electric fans have no business on an off highway vehicle by themselves.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

Thanks... i'll put the electric fan idea in the "thought about" drawer....
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
While the stock clutch fan may exceed the CFM available from an electric at higher engine speeds, electric fans really shine at lower speeds.
I am unable to get a consistent rating for either the stock or electrics in my case. The stock fan pulls in excess of 4000 cfm. The dual electric fans 3800 cfm. At idles speeds they pull as much as the stock fan does in the higher rpms. It does cool much better than stock. The AC works better, the engine stays cooler.

Anytime you add a load to the electrical system you should also consider the systems affected. My vehicle has a CS130D alternator that is rated at 100 amps. As with the cfm rating for fans, that is maximum, not idle speed where I need that power. At idle speeds it would produce just over 50 amps. The 14 amp load I added is over 20% of that capacity. With all the accessories on it was more than was available and there was a voltage drop. Voltage drop for the fans means lower speeds and less air.
Another problem from over taxing the alternator is the heat that is generated and the associated decrease in lifespan. Neither are desirable.

Airflow is not the only part of the puzzle. In my case the reservoir of coolant and the surface area of the radiator were insufficient for a hotter climate. I increased the radiator size and capacity. Next the stock temperature range was just too close to the edge of hot. I installed a lower temperature theromostat. Now you must match the engagement point for the clutch fan. The stock clutch fan engages way too late in my opinion. There were no lower temperature clutches available, and eliminating it is not a good idea to maintain performance and mileage. Electrics are easily adjustable.
Maintaining fan speed and voltage by adding a bigger alternator was the last piece. It has been working well for me.

Pros, and Cons.
The stock fan is pretty hard to beat. It moves lots of air. It is simple. The clutch is performance friendly and really does a good job. It is simple and virtually break proof. The stock mechanical fan is a very good set-up.
It is not adjustable. It may not pull enough air at low engine speeds. It can be very loud when the clutch is locked.

Electrics are nice. Faster warm ups. In the wintertime they rarely turn on around here. Adjustability. Better airflow for the AC when idling. Manual override. They are not turning all the time requiring engine horsepower. There may be some performance and mileage increases. (the stock clutch fan does a good job, increases may be minimal at best)

Would I do it again? Yes. If a lower temperature clutch had been available would I have done that? Perhaps, but the benefits of the electrics would likely have drawn me that direction eventually.

Each application is different. Install it right and consider all the things it will effect. Do it right using properly sized fan, wire , fuses, relays, thermostatic controls, etc.
The majority of vehicles on the road are using electric fans. They are dependable and durable. They do have a place in an offroad vehicle.
 
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Bob_Sheaves

Observer
HenryJ said:
While the stock clutch fan may exceed the CFM available from an electric at higher engine speeds, electric fans really shine at lower speeds.
I am unable to get a consistent rating for either the stock or electrics in my case. The stock fan pulls in excess of 4000 cfm. The dual electric fans 3800 cfm. At idles speeds they pull as much as the stock fan does in the higher rpms. It does cool much better than stock. The AC works better, the engine stays cooler.

Anytime you add a load to the electrical system you should also consider the systems affected. My vehicle has a CS130D alternator that is rated at 100 amps. As with the cfm rating for fans, that is maximum, not idle speed where I need that power. At idle speeds it would produce just over 50 amps. The 14 amp load I added is over 20% of that capacity. With all the accessories on it was more than was available and there was a voltage drop. Voltage drop for the fans means lower speeds and less air.
Another problem from over taxing the alternator is the heat that is generated and the associated decrease in lifespan. Neither are desirable.

Airflow is not the only part of the puzzle. In my case the reservoir of coolant and the surface area of the radiator were insufficient for a hotter climate. I increased the radiator size and capacity. Next the stock temperature range was just too close to the edge of hot. I installed a lower temperature theromostat. Now you must match the engagement point for the clutch fan. The stock clutch fan engages way too late in my opinion. There were no lower temperature clutches available, and eliminating it is not a good idea to maintain performance and mileage. Electrics are easily adjustable.
Maintaining fan speed and voltage by adding a bigger alternator was the last piece. It has been working well for me.

Pros, and Cons.
The stock fan is pretty hard to beat. It moves lots of air. It is simple. The clutch is performance friendly and really does a good job. It is simple and virtually break proof. The stock mechanical fan is a very good set-up.
It is not adjustable. It may not pull enough air at low engine speeds. It can be very loud when the clutch is locked.

Electrics are nice. Faster warm ups. In the wintertime they rarely turn on around here. Adjustability. Better airflow for the AC when idling. Manual override. They are not turning all the time requiring engine horsepower. There may be some performance and mileage increases. (the stock clutch fan does a good job, increases may be minimal at best)

Would I do it again? Yes. If a lower temperature clutch had been available would I have done that? Perhaps, but the benefits of the electrics would likely have drawn me that direction eventually.

Each application is different. Install it right and consider all the things it will effect. Do it right using properly sized fan, wire , fuses, relays, thermostatic controls, etc.
The majority of vehicles on the road are using electric fans. They are dependable and durable. They do have a place in an offroad vehicle.

Sorry, cooling is strictly a function of heat rejection thru the cooler. Period. All the other items you mention do not increase the cooling capacity-it merely postpones the inevitable failure under loading at peak power, which has nothing to do with engine speed or vehicle speed. Peak power is at 0.7 or above tractive effort, usually in the 10-11mph (or less) range in a vehicle moving in compound low range. There is good reason there are no electric fans used in military vehicles. Electric fans simply cannot do the job under peak loading.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
Bob_Sheaves said:
Sorry, cooling is strictly a function of heat rejection thru the cooler. Period. All the other items you mention do not increase the cooling capacity-it merely postpones the inevitable failure under loading at peak power, which has nothing to do with engine speed or vehicle speed.
The size of the system must be such that it can meet the demands of the load applied. Heat is transfer to air. The removal of that heated air does effect cooling. Increased air flow does improve cooling.
Electric fans can exceed the cfm of engine driven fans.
This is not theory in my case. I tested and applied each step to a very functional system.

I agree to disagree, Peace.
 

Bob_Sheaves

Observer
HenryJ said:
The size of the system must be such that it can meet the demands of the load applied. Heat is transfer to air. The removal of that heated air does effect cooling. Increased air flow does improve cooling.
Electric fans can exceed the cfm of engine driven fans.
This is not theory in my case. I tested and applied each step to a very functional system.

I agree to disagree, Peace.
Not at all...no "agree to disagree". You are not correct in answering the other gentleman's question. I also have experience-30 years worth in vehicle design for commercial and military vehicles and have probably broken more vehicles, due to poor design practices such as the one you espouse, than anyone else on this board. There is no electric fan ever built for automotive use that can equal the cooling needs of an offroad vehicle engine at peak loading. Simply put, if you havent seen the problem with your "assembly", you have not pushed it to peak yet.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
Bob_Sheaves said:
...if you havent seen the problem with your "assembly", you have not pushed it to peak yet.
Oh, I have.
I Also have a street driven 700+ HP HenryJ that is cooled by electric fans. I'd be happy to give you a ride down the road at peak load anytime :D
 

Bob_Sheaves

Observer
HenryJ said:
Oh, I have.
I Also have a street driven 700+ HP HenryJ that is cooled by electric fans. I'd be happy to give you a ride down the road at peak load anytime :D
You cannot reach peak on highway (further example you know not what you are talking about). You cannot get enough tire or gear to pull 0.7 tractive effort on a car, any car, with 700hp (assuming you have a sustained 700hp, and not "California hp"). When you can pull 250,000 lbs for 3000+ miles without exceeding 205 degrees F with that 700hp (like my FTL Australian road trains do everyday across the outback), I might believe you.

Sorry, but your dancing around still does not change the fact you have not contributed anything useful (like a fan that DOES have a 10hp motor on it) to help the other gentleman.

End of interaction.

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com
 

HenryJ

Expedition Leader
Bob_Sheaves said:
...When you can pull 250,000 lbs for 3000+ miles without exceeding 205 degrees F with that 700hp (like my FTL Australian road trains do everyday across the outback), I might believe you.

Sorry, but your dancing around still does not change the fact you have not contributed anything useful (like a fan that DOES have a 10hp motor on it) to help the other gentleman.

End of interaction.
From the first post of this thread:
GlowinGreenklr650 said:
...The one for the Xterra ...
For expedition purposes. Would electric be reliable? Especially with dust and water.

What would you guys suggest?
This has gone way off track. I was making suggestions to the application and to the question posed. He was not asking to pull 250,000 lbs, nor would that be possible with a Nissan Xterra. He does not require a 10 hp motor to cool this vehicle.
I would not have made the suggestions , nor brought up my example for a different application if it did not apply.

Thank you for your input. Speaking your mind is a valuable asset.
 
HenryJ said:
From the first post of this thread:
This has gone way off track. I was making suggestions to the application and to the question posed. He was not asking to pull 250,000 lbs, nor would that be possible with a Nissan Xterra. He does not require a 10 hp motor to cool this vehicle.
I would not have made the suggestions , nor brought up my example for a different application if it did not apply.

Thank you for your input. Speaking your mind is a valuable asset.

Ladies. Please. Don't fight over lil ol me! :sport_box

HenryJ was on point. My application would be a 2001 Nissan Xterra. It sees mostly hwy and 30-50mph gravel roads. RARELY do I even go below 15. I do not rock crawl and I do not bury the vehicle in mud. If I pull anything its a 300lb motorcycle on a 4x8 or 5x10 trailer.

Dust is the main culprit i would presume, seeing that 1/3 of my miles are on gravel roads.

I am interested in the Ford Taurus fan. It seems to be able to the fan of choice. The Ford 8C607 2 speed fan. This fan is found in 90-95 Ford Taurus and Lincoln cars with the 3.8L V6 engine. And like mentioned earlier there are some negative sides, one being that you have to trim the shroud to make it fit, and that it draws nearly 100amps on startup, settling to 33amp constant draw, making it a major charging system drain. If I can get the fan from the taurus for cheap, the 180amp Mean Green Alternator will run me $380.

The Xterra's original alternator puts out only 80 amps.

And Mr. Bob. I do commend your tonka truck fans. :costumed-smiley-007




hmmmm
 
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