offthepath
Adventurer
Bummer I've enjoyed the thread. Not saying it isn't something major, but the symptoms are odd.
EyeInTheSky's Gen 3 Budget Build Thread
- Thread starter EyeInTheSky
- Start date
EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
The outpouring of support from you guys has been great. I really do appreciate it. I’m going to try to go one by one and respond (some posts edited for length).
The Montero is back home with me now. Basically, it runs like hell, definitely missing on at least one cylinder. It won’t stay running without heavy application of the throttle, the whole vehicle shakes during idle, and I noticed a heavy smell of gasoline when I shut it off.
My idle was all over the place, from 300ish up to 900 and back down to almost dead when I let it sit for a bit. Fuel trims were all pegged at +25, though no CEL currently.
I had my wife take a video of me backing it into the garage so you could hear the engine. Unfortunately the sound came out terrible. I’m going to try to strip the audio and enhance it. When I get that done I’ll post it here for your expert ears.
I’m reserving judgment until I have stripped it down to the heads, but my initial thoughts:
I don’t think this is going to simply be a coil/plug issue. The lack of compression on a cylinder points to a deeper problem than that, so I may have a bad coil, but the root of the problem seems to be elsewhere.
We are hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.
I plan to run a compression test ASAP to determine the status of 6 (mechanic stated “no pressure”) and to find the other cylinder described as “low.”
I read through the thread. The difference here is that he found a shop to do the work. Monday will be my day for making calls regarding rebuilding the heads. I’m still concerned about the bottom end, however.
I mentioned a junkyard swap, but she pointed out that, regardless of the true amount of miles on the donor vehicle, we’re taking that same gamble, and that there’s a decent chance of being in the same or similar boat again.
Granted, all of this truly depends on what I find in the engine, so I don’t want to put the cart too far in front of the horse.
I do think we’ve ruled out the junkyard swap from our options, since we want this vehicle to be a long term, ultra-reliable rig that we can depend on with our lives.
The Montero is back home with me now. Basically, it runs like hell, definitely missing on at least one cylinder. It won’t stay running without heavy application of the throttle, the whole vehicle shakes during idle, and I noticed a heavy smell of gasoline when I shut it off.
My idle was all over the place, from 300ish up to 900 and back down to almost dead when I let it sit for a bit. Fuel trims were all pegged at +25, though no CEL currently.
I had my wife take a video of me backing it into the garage so you could hear the engine. Unfortunately the sound came out terrible. I’m going to try to strip the audio and enhance it. When I get that done I’ll post it here for your expert ears.
I’m reserving judgment until I have stripped it down to the heads, but my initial thoughts:
I don’t think this is going to simply be a coil/plug issue. The lack of compression on a cylinder points to a deeper problem than that, so I may have a bad coil, but the root of the problem seems to be elsewhere.
We are hoping for the best, preparing for the worst.
It’s painful math to do. Had to do that with my first Montero (my first car ever, actually). Junkyard swap with unknown mile prior to my brother and I; we put 40k on it, body had 200k or so, before it finally blew a head gasket and cracked the heads. $3,000 cash through a state program and into the salvage yard it went. Good luck.
I plan to run a compression test ASAP to determine the status of 6 (mechanic stated “no pressure”) and to find the other cylinder described as “low.”
I read through the thread. The difference here is that he found a shop to do the work. Monday will be my day for making calls regarding rebuilding the heads. I’m still concerned about the bottom end, however.
Grounds will get you every time. Thanks for the tip; I’ll be inspecting them at some point in this endeavor.
Here’s where my wife comes into this. I was running through the options with her, and without my prompting, she asked if a replacement engine would be a good idea, regardless if there was moderate or worse damage. Her reasoning, which I’m inclined to agree with, is that the Montero has 193,000 miles on it. That’s a whole lot of ground it’s covered. If I have damage to a valve, I’m going to need a valve job. If I do one, I’ll do the other. Now while I’m at the point of having the heads off, there’s the bottom end, just sitting. Same amount of wear time on it as the heads, same maintenance schedule as the heads, so possibly a ticking clock, counting down until it decides to throw a rod when we’re way out in the back country. She would feel safer and more secure knowing that the entire engine has been either rebuilt or replaced with something that essentially starts that clock over.
I mentioned a junkyard swap, but she pointed out that, regardless of the true amount of miles on the donor vehicle, we’re taking that same gamble, and that there’s a decent chance of being in the same or similar boat again.
Granted, all of this truly depends on what I find in the engine, so I don’t want to put the cart too far in front of the horse.
I do think we’ve ruled out the junkyard swap from our options, since we want this vehicle to be a long term, ultra-reliable rig that we can depend on with our lives.
I appreciate the sentiment, and I definitely have taken some time to step back from it all. Perspective helps. We will see.
What do you mean by odd?
EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
Intake plenum is off but I didn't have time to run the compression test today. I will be spending many hours working on the Montero tomorrow.
A few notes from disassembly:
PCV valve and hose were missing and the inlet on the plenum was capped with a removable rubber tip. I know it was there when I brought it to the shop so I'm going to give them a call.
There was milky-looking oil residue on and around the plenum gasket/intake manifold at cylinder 6. This was not present when I pulled the plenum to replace the plugs.
The same cylinder smelled strongly of gasoline.
There was some oil at the top of the wire boots on most of the cylinders.
The plugs all seemed dry, no obvious fouling.
The milky oil leads me to believe there was a possible head gasket failure and or a crack in the head. I should know more tomorrow.
A few notes from disassembly:
PCV valve and hose were missing and the inlet on the plenum was capped with a removable rubber tip. I know it was there when I brought it to the shop so I'm going to give them a call.
There was milky-looking oil residue on and around the plenum gasket/intake manifold at cylinder 6. This was not present when I pulled the plenum to replace the plugs.
The same cylinder smelled strongly of gasoline.
There was some oil at the top of the wire boots on most of the cylinders.
The plugs all seemed dry, no obvious fouling.
The milky oil leads me to believe there was a possible head gasket failure and or a crack in the head. I should know more tomorrow.
EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
Compression Test Results:
Cylinder 1: 120psi
Cylinder 2: 115psi
Cylinder 3: 90psi
Cylinder 4: 120psi
Cylinder 5: 120psi
Cylinder 6: 0psi and no revolutions that I could hear, just a constant noise.
Picked up a 10mm hex socket so the heads should come off today. Needed to take a break to refer to CoffeeGoat's excellent writeup from his engine refresh. A great resource for any 2001-2002 owner looking to get the heads off their engine. Link here
Cylinder 1: 120psi
Cylinder 2: 115psi
Cylinder 3: 90psi
Cylinder 4: 120psi
Cylinder 5: 120psi
Cylinder 6: 0psi and no revolutions that I could hear, just a constant noise.
Picked up a 10mm hex socket so the heads should come off today. Needed to take a break to refer to CoffeeGoat's excellent writeup from his engine refresh. A great resource for any 2001-2002 owner looking to get the heads off their engine. Link here
EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
Damn! I knew I forgot to do something. I guess I can torque the headbolts down some and do it again.
I did run the test on a cold engine, so I expect the psi to be a bit lower.
BOPOH
Explorer
that's what i was afraid of. Please take as many pictures as you can.
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EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
So I'm looking at replacing the entire engine more and more. The low compression on all cylinders has me a bit worried, and with 193k miles, she's tired. I found a place out of LA that sells a reman 6G74 for $2,500 out the door with a 6mo warranty. I can get an extended warranty for $400/yr, so I'd probably go with $2900 for an 18mo warranty.
This is way less than I've been quoted for a full engine rebuild, though I still need to make some calls and get some more quotes. I would do the install myself, so I'd buy a hoist and stand (though I'd probably resell them after I'm done).
What are your guys' thoughts on this? We are looking really hard at replacing the engine regardless of what we find in the engine. Everything else on the rig is in great shape, and buying another Montero is quite a risk and would necessitate my switching multiple pieces over (shocks, wheels, CB/loudspeaker, roof rack, USB plug, etc.).
I've also looked at the 3.8L swap, but I can't find anyone who has done it with a 2001/2002 (only seen one swap, which was a Gen1... OldGoat on 4x4wire). I don't want to deal with the ECU issues, drive by wire, etc. Well, I wouldn't mind, but I don't want to be the first one to do it. :-D
I'm a bit nervous overall, as these are some turbulent waters we are treading here. Would love to hear your opinions.
This is way less than I've been quoted for a full engine rebuild, though I still need to make some calls and get some more quotes. I would do the install myself, so I'd buy a hoist and stand (though I'd probably resell them after I'm done).
What are your guys' thoughts on this? We are looking really hard at replacing the engine regardless of what we find in the engine. Everything else on the rig is in great shape, and buying another Montero is quite a risk and would necessitate my switching multiple pieces over (shocks, wheels, CB/loudspeaker, roof rack, USB plug, etc.).
I've also looked at the 3.8L swap, but I can't find anyone who has done it with a 2001/2002 (only seen one swap, which was a Gen1... OldGoat on 4x4wire). I don't want to deal with the ECU issues, drive by wire, etc. Well, I wouldn't mind, but I don't want to be the first one to do it. :-D
I'm a bit nervous overall, as these are some turbulent waters we are treading here. Would love to hear your opinions.
Sabre
Overlanding Nurse
If it were I...go with the reman.
Your engine is showing its age, and it's inevitable that there are other areas of it that have suffered from lack of lubrication and/or dirty oil, hard use, etc. Valve train, big end bearings, rings & pistons...every bit of this engine had the same wear and tear that has left you with these bad compression numbers that you now see. It's always more expensive to rebuild...shop labor for a one-off job is extremely expensive, and will account for perhaps 70% of the cost of the job. A crate remanufactured engine is done on something much closer to an assembly line; the costs are necessarily lower to do the work. And that warranty is a reassuring piece of the equation.
My late father-in-law, an amazing mechanic, machinist, university experimental vehicle builder and renaissance man, always taught me that the vehicle itself is the part that you need to most carefully shop for...the engine is easy to fix or replace, but you can't easily (or cheaply) fix a cancerous, twisted body, bent frame, trashed running gear or interior, buggy electronics, etc.
You clearly like the truck. Give it a new heart for not much more money than having some major engine work done and enjoy the heck out of it with peace of mind.
My $0.02. :friday:
Your engine is showing its age, and it's inevitable that there are other areas of it that have suffered from lack of lubrication and/or dirty oil, hard use, etc. Valve train, big end bearings, rings & pistons...every bit of this engine had the same wear and tear that has left you with these bad compression numbers that you now see. It's always more expensive to rebuild...shop labor for a one-off job is extremely expensive, and will account for perhaps 70% of the cost of the job. A crate remanufactured engine is done on something much closer to an assembly line; the costs are necessarily lower to do the work. And that warranty is a reassuring piece of the equation.
My late father-in-law, an amazing mechanic, machinist, university experimental vehicle builder and renaissance man, always taught me that the vehicle itself is the part that you need to most carefully shop for...the engine is easy to fix or replace, but you can't easily (or cheaply) fix a cancerous, twisted body, bent frame, trashed running gear or interior, buggy electronics, etc.
You clearly like the truck. Give it a new heart for not much more money than having some major engine work done and enjoy the heck out of it with peace of mind.
My $0.02. :friday:
coffeegoat
Adventurer
Bit of a stretch - but you could check in with DeltaFry as well, his post is here and here.
It could be a nice option to combine the best bits from two rigs and DeltaFry did a bunch of nice work on his (including a new engine). You could probably part out the rest of the remaining rig to help cover expenses. I think he was asking 10k last I heard, so it's not certainly not as cheap as a new engine, but you'd get a well cared for and updated rig, with a 5 year engine warranty.
It could be a nice option to combine the best bits from two rigs and DeltaFry did a bunch of nice work on his (including a new engine). You could probably part out the rest of the remaining rig to help cover expenses. I think he was asking 10k last I heard, so it's not certainly not as cheap as a new engine, but you'd get a well cared for and updated rig, with a 5 year engine warranty.
EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
That's exactly my thinking with this. Thanks.
Unfortunately I have engine money, not entire new vehicle money. Looks like a great rig; I hope he gets what he's asking.
nwoods
Expedition Leader
You said you are willing to pull the motor yourself, and that you have "engine money"..... considered buying a new donor vehicle and swapping motors? Or, maybe finding one in a scrap year with rear end damage and just pull the motor from that? By and large these motors are considered to be incredibly well built and will run forever, unless it doesn't. Find one still running and strong and use that?
EyeInTheSky
Adventurer
Some thoughts while stripping this thing down:
What in God's green earth is this??? All my intake manifold studs had this setup with the washers:
Also, missing PCV valve. I know for a fact that was there when it went to the shop. Nice of them to put that black cap on the inlet.
Lastly, I'm curious why Mitsubishi decided to leave the timing belt so exposed to the elements. There was a good deal of grit and grime in here, which I would think could degrade the belt much more quickly than necessary. Oh how I wish this was a timing chain so I wouldn't have to worry. The T.C. in my Grand Cherokee is original, and it's got 228,000 miles on it.
I wish. Here's a guy with a cool Pajero. Too bad I live in CA. Engine swaps are evil out here, plus computers make it a whole lot harder than "back in the day."
Honestly, my Montero is screaming for a powerful turbo diesel. The most fun I've had driving a vehicle was in my brother's F-250 King Ranch 6.0 that had about $10k dropped into the engine bay. Effortless acceleration up hills with power to spare, and that awesome diesel turbo whine/roar. I actually was looking at getting a CUCV instead of a Montero, but decided I wanted the creature comforts. Too bad the Mitsu 3.2 never made it here. Given that diesel engines are getting more popular, coupled with the rumors of a Montero returning to the US, maybe? A guy can hope.
"...unless it doesn't." That's the part I'm concerned about. :-D As many of us have found, these motors will run forever IF basic maintenance has been taken care of, which many non-enthusiasts don't handle.
Also, there aren't many junkyard motors around here, unfortunately. The lowest mileage I've found is 75k, and they want about $500 less than I can get the reman for. All the rest are high mileage, which puts me right back to where I started. Right now I'm looking at around $2,700 for a reman with a 12mo warranty (can pay an extra $400/yr of warranty up to 3 if I want).
What in God's green earth is this??? All my intake manifold studs had this setup with the washers:
Also, missing PCV valve. I know for a fact that was there when it went to the shop. Nice of them to put that black cap on the inlet.
Lastly, I'm curious why Mitsubishi decided to leave the timing belt so exposed to the elements. There was a good deal of grit and grime in here, which I would think could degrade the belt much more quickly than necessary. Oh how I wish this was a timing chain so I wouldn't have to worry. The T.C. in my Grand Cherokee is original, and it's got 228,000 miles on it.
I wish. Here's a guy with a cool Pajero. Too bad I live in CA. Engine swaps are evil out here, plus computers make it a whole lot harder than "back in the day."
Honestly, my Montero is screaming for a powerful turbo diesel. The most fun I've had driving a vehicle was in my brother's F-250 King Ranch 6.0 that had about $10k dropped into the engine bay. Effortless acceleration up hills with power to spare, and that awesome diesel turbo whine/roar. I actually was looking at getting a CUCV instead of a Montero, but decided I wanted the creature comforts. Too bad the Mitsu 3.2 never made it here. Given that diesel engines are getting more popular, coupled with the rumors of a Montero returning to the US, maybe? A guy can hope.
"...unless it doesn't." That's the part I'm concerned about. :-D As many of us have found, these motors will run forever IF basic maintenance has been taken care of, which many non-enthusiasts don't handle.
Also, there aren't many junkyard motors around here, unfortunately. The lowest mileage I've found is 75k, and they want about $500 less than I can get the reman for. All the rest are high mileage, which puts me right back to where I started. Right now I'm looking at around $2,700 for a reman with a 12mo warranty (can pay an extra $400/yr of warranty up to 3 if I want).
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