Firefly Oasis carbon foam AGM battery

[ADVdreams]

Sorry that was confusing it’s 24A CC, 14.4 CV that drops to float at 2A.

I doubt a few hours here and there at elevated voltage will have a harmful effect.

I think I'd try an actual desulfator rather than EQing an AGM.

BatteryMINDer® Model OBD-12: 12V On-Board Desulfator

BatteryMINDer's 12 volt on-board battery charger maintainer can more than double the useful life of new jet ski or ATV batteries.

www.batteryminders.com

Might take a few weeks or months to see any significant improvement.

Yes that’s what I was thinking too. The equalization charge was requested by the manufacturer (maybe partially as a stress test?). I did some research and found that lifeline also recommends equalization. I agree this is contrary to typical AGM recommendations focused on minimizing water depletion.

Can I Equalize AGM Batteries? - Lifeline Batteries

Most of you have heard that you cannot equalize AGM batteries. Lifeline Batteries can be equalized

lifelinebatteries.com

While browsing the lifeline site I found that Lifeline has also published some Interesting troubleshooting for common battery failures (including some potential differentiation between a sulfated battery and an overcharged battery).

How To Tell If You Have A “Bad” Battery? - Lifeline Batteries

This common phrase comes up a lot in the world of batteries. Ironically there are very few actual "bad" or...

lifelinebatteries.com

Lifeline manual pages 21 and 22 cover charging, conditioning and deep discharge recovery.

http://lifelinebatteries.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/6-0101-Rev-E-Lifeline-Technical-Manual.pdf

Firefly/Oasis has been good and have replaced the battery. I wanted to focus on any potential installation issues and not create any negative coverage for the G31 or the manufacturer.

The thing is these batteries are now insanely expensive locally and I’m spooked. ... I have this nagging feeling that I don’t really understand why the first battery failed. Maybe I was just unlucky and got a bad one. I hope so because otherwise dropping a new battery into the same system and expecting a different result ... will look really dumb in hindsight

 

[dwh]

I'm aware that AGM can be EQ'd if done properly. But EQ isn't really a desulfation technique, it's an anti-stratification technique. So if the problem was sulfation, I wouldn't expect EQ to do much about it. Carbon foam is supposedly very resistant to sulfation, so I have my doubts as to that being the problem in the first place.

As for electrolyte starvation, I think it unlikely unless the battery was forced to vent, which isn't all that easy to do if the valve is working properly. A few hours here and there at vehicle voltage (alternator charging) shouldn't be enough to do it unless the battery was very hot. But carbon foam batteries are supposedly also heat resistant. Still, I think a bad valve may be more likely than sulfation.

Stratification is a possibility, but the factory spec EQ should have dealt with that.

I have no idea what sort of plate deterioration/ failure modes (clogged pores?) that carbon foam is susceptible to, so can't comment on that.

 

[john61ct]

"Desulfator" tech is pure snake oil, scams all.

Each AGM manufacturer has their own specific care procedures, which should be followed closely for good longevity. Do not "cross pollinate" recommended protocols from one brand to another.

Lifeline is the only quality maker who still recommends equalization, i.e. at elevated voltages.

The others have lower voltage "conditioning" procedures.

Firefly's "capacity restore" procedures, and their resistance to chronic PSOC abuse conditions, are unique. But that needs to be balanced against the higher cost.

Just replacing your bank more frequently may in some markets result in a lower overall cost per Ah per year.

 

[dwh]

"Desulfator" tech is pure snake oil, scams all.

I disagree.

I used to think so, but after a lot of searching I found some evidence which showed that there was some benefit. I then bought a charger which does desulfation and tested it myself. There was noticable improvement. It took many days and the improvement was not spectacular...and after a while it hit a wall and just didn't get any better beyond a certain point.

But it did work.

Each manufacturer has their own scheme; some use low freqs, some high. My guess is the "full sweep" scheme used by Battery MINDer probably does the best job by sweeping through a range of freqs. But that's just a guess.

On my next set of new batteries, I will be installing the Battery MINder desulfator that I linked above. Actually, when my current 400ah (2x200ah) AGM bank wears out, I'll likely install the desulfator on that just to test and see what happens.



And you and I have been down this road before...


https://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/battery-solar-question.200123/page-2#post-2564330

 

[john61ct]

Yes, worth repeating I think.

In any case an ounce of prevention. . .

 

[ADVdreams]

Appreciate the thoughts and insight.

With respect to cross pollination i couldn’t agree more, I posted the lifeline EQ procedure because it is very similar to the unpublished procedure provided to me by firefly Oasis to address suspected sulfation.

Thanks for the comments on alternator charging a welcome sanity check. It’s not really practical to limit alternator voltage to 13.2V (based on oasis charging recommendations floating around the web detailed by John above). I think the no modification solution is to just open the ACR if the battery is 80% charged or aboveboard minimize “floating”. Oh and the battery is installed inside the climate controlled cabin so I can’t envision a high temperature scenario.

The drops in capacity I’ve observed after experimenting with equalization are still a mystery.

 

[DaveInDenver]

I ran a PulseTech for about two years.

Collections

PulseTech

www.pulsetech.net

I found no discernible difference between two PC1400 batteries purchased at the same time, one being a group 25 and the other 35, with it hanging off one of them. They weren't the same batch of batteries, though.

It did ruin reception quite well on my radios, particularly the HF radios, with perfectly periodic broadband interference.

You're better off with good charging practices than trying to prevent it with pulses or other nonsense and I used to be a believer. Maybe it works better on other brands or types of batteries, I haven't tried it with anything else.

 

[john61ct]

It’s not really practical to limit alternator voltage to 13.2V (based on oasis charging recommendations floating around the web detailed by John above). I think the no modification solution is

a DCDC charger.

Yes the FF tech is **much much better** at ameliorating the impact of PSOC abuse, but

if you have the ability to get to true 100% Full, you really should do so every opportunity.

 

[luthj]

A few hours at a higher alternator driven float is nothing to worry about.

 

[dwh]

It did ruin reception quite well on my radios, particularly the HF radios, with perfectly periodic broadband interference.

There are also anecdotal reports from a decade ago about certain brands of desulfator causing MPPT chargers to have issues tracking Vmp.

Still, I have done some testing, seen some positive results and am willing to drop a hundred bucks to test it further.

Not a radio guy myself so can't test that. I don't even listen to music when driving.

 

[luthj]

Tangentially related, but on big lead acid traction batteries, sulfation can be partially reversed with the following process.

Drain acid after a full charge. Fill with DI water. Charge at about 14-14.3V until the specific gravity stops rising. Drain the water (now weak acid). Refill promptly with fresh acid. Return battery to service. Lead sulfate crystals are not very soluble in sulfuric acid. But they do dissolve much more easily in pure water.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Still, I have done some testing, seen some positive results and am willing to drop a hundred bucks to test it further.

I don't mean to say that desulfation is snake oil because it isn't. The standard recovery that @luthj mentions does help and its essentially what a reputable manufacturer would recommend for a recovery. There's also research that pulsed current is beneficial in preventing and to some extent reversing crystallization.

For example: https://www.researchgate.net/public..._means_for_overcoming_premature_capacity_loss

All I'm saying is a little arbitrary low energy pulsing box hung off the terminals is marginally effective at doing anything. I think you'd need to be pulsing a typical vehicle battery with something on the order of 40 amps at 25% duty cycle to achieve this.

 

[ADVdreams]

a DCDC charger.

Yes the FF tech is **much much better** at ameliorating the impact of PSOC abuse, but

if you have the ability to get to true 100% Full, you really should do so every opportunity.

What your saying is of course logical, and is also inline with “firefly support” support, however the firefly marketing materials appear to encourage operation at lower SOC citing increased efficiency with no mention of risk or trade offs. (Slides 11-16)

https://asianbatteryconference.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/59/2017/10/Mukesh_Bhandari.pdf

A challenge for my setup with DC-DC charging is the limited current available. Other than “travel days” our driving is a minimum so it almost assured that a 3-step charge cycle would be interrupted during short on/off trips. I reasoned the higher amperage output of the alternator would get the battery to 80% quicker. Probably just need to add in a full charge every couple days when shore power is available.

If I had to do it over again this looks like a compelling option

Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC Charger Isolated - Victron Energy

The Orion-Tr Smart DC-DC charger is a professional DC to DC adaptive 3-stage charger with built-in Bluetooth. For use in dual battery systems in vehicles...

www.victronenergy.com

Although it doesn’t provide the “self boost” option like the blue sea ACR.

 

[john61ct]

What your saying is of course logical, and is also inline with “firefly support” support, however the firefly marketing materials appear to encourage operation at lower SOC citing increased efficiency with no mention of risk or trade offs.

Yes, and they are not lying, however those **are** marketing materials as you say.

The whole point of paying the Firefly premium is that lifetime cycle longevity is **much less** reduced by chronic PSOC conditions than any other lead formulation.

There is no logical conflict between that assertion, and advice that whenever it is possible (not too much trouble) for the owner to get the bank back to true 100% Full SoC, they should do so in order to get the best possible longevity.

Just do the best you can, utilize all possible charge sources.

> Probably just need to add in a full charge every couple days when shore power is available.

Yes of course, no probably about it!

A DCDC charger really can't be considered comparable to an ACR, different categories, both fine products but apples to oranges.

 

[ADVdreams]

What intrigued me about this particular DC-DC charger is that it does have an internal ignition “on” relay and fully programable via Bluetooth.