First Post: Intro and Guidance needed...

[ChuckB]

Hello all, This is a great forum!! I been on 'Mud for a while now and have been looking very closely at the Expeditions West webpage lately and managed to find my way over here. My screen name is the same over there, I don't post a ton, just mostly soak up info. (I apologize in advance if this gets long!)

A little about me: I guess I'm still a noob when it comes to actual wheelin' and wrenching experience. I'm only 25 so I guess I still have time to make up for it!! As you can see in my sig, my current daily driver is an '86 FJ60. I have had it about 4 years now and love it. Unfortunately I have not really had a chance to wheel (at all) like I want to, mostly due to occupation. More on that later... I guess the expedition bug hit back in my teenage years taking a couple family vacations to different parts of the globe and getting rides in different vehicles (started with a Rover, I know I know) in some fairly rugged terrain. I have since seen the light and am a die-hard cruiser fan.

A little about my plans: I am a detail person (thanks to my father) and research things to an exausting degree before I actually make important decisions. Hence, the reason why I am here and I :bowdown: to the experience and knowledge present on this board. As mentioned, I don't have any wheeling/expedition experience to draw from. (Unless you count time in 29 Palms training area) So in order to get this hobby started I would like to call upon the advice and opinion of members of this board.

I am at a point now where I have basically decided to sell my 60 within the next year or so. Unfortunately I made a spur of the moment decision and bought my 60 on the East Coast. Natuarlly it is suffering from cancer. Its salvagable, but not without considerable expense. Considering that I live in San Diego, there is a plethora of cruisers available to me. As much as I love it, I'm willing to part with it for a clean SW cruiser to begin my base for an expedition type/DD vehicle.
Notice I did not specify a model... Don't worry I am keenly aware of the all the differences between the 60/80/100 series, so we do not need to discuss those issues at all. :sport_box

I guess what I am looking for with you, the collective members of this board, is advice/experience on what has worked/not worked for based your thousands of miles of time with these vehicles. My one criteria is that the vehicle that I eventually choose would potentially have to be both a DD and expedition vehicle. Being in close proximity to Baja I can see myself taking trips down there frequently and anywhere else in the US. I don't mind a good drive and I'm not affraid of a manual transmission, I like the challenge it presents.

My plan as it is now: Limit myself to $25-30K. This is includes purchase of USED vehicle, required maintance to bring it up to expeditionary standards and if any money left over start some basic mods. The end goal being a vehicle capable of extended expedition travel and grocery getter.

One thing I am looking into is a 60 converted to diesel, but I haven't convinced myself the expense it worth it yet...

It appears that the majority of the members own either an 80 or Taco. I am a wagon guy and am leaning toward a 60 or 80...possibly a 100.

Please guide me in the ways of the experienced traveler!

 

[Scott Brady]

Chuck,

I enjoyed your post, and noticed a few things that already impress me:

1. For 25, you are well spoken and articulate.
2. That you have kept the 60 as long as you have. (I.E.- most young people, myself included, changed cars like hair styles)
3. That you are interested in researching available options, and that mods are a less important investment than the base vehicle itself.

So, you are already well on your way to being a successful explorer IMO:ylsmoke:

I can speak from some experience with each wagon model, and would offer this advice.

FJ60:

I have owned a 1985 FJ60 and really enjoyed the truck. Very simple and robust, and lots of funk factor (which is a good thing). You can also fit the HD 5-speed to it. With an OME suspension and moderate tires you will have a good riding vehicle and room for a moderate tire (I would install the 33x10.5 AT). With examples like Henry's 60, there are lots of great builds to look towards. So the 60 would be my choice if you favored ultimate simplicity and ease of repair, but didnt mind slower highway speed, rattles and a less refined suspension.

FJ80:

I believe that if I was faced with your choice, I would find a base model 92 or 93 FJ80. The coil-sprung suspension is a big improvement in handling and comfort IMHO. There are loads of expedition related parts available too. You will have better road speeds and comfort, and an O.D. which will allow low axle gearing. You can find these years with cloth seats and minimal bling.

There is also the benefit of having many other 80's on a trip with you. The chances of having spare parts or experience in much greater. On nearly all of my trips the vehicles are a combination of 80's and Tacomas.

Either way, you cannot go wrong. It would be like picking between Miss America and the runner up

 

[blupaddler]

First off...

Welcome Chuck!

I live in San Diego, out by SDSU. So if there is ANYTHING I can help you with, just let me know. Or if you just want to go and surf, I am definately up for that, not too many of us here.



Along the lines of what you are looking for...
Well, Scott had a lot of great points. I have personally never owned a 60, always wanted one. But the comfort level led me to my 80.



My feedback so far...My 80 has been great. I have owned it for two years, this month! (Which is the longest I have owned a vehicle so far.) The aftermarket support and tech available is amazing, especially Slee Off Road. It has been fairly easy to work on, and their are tons of things to spend your $$$ on. I had to do a bit of preventitive maintanence initally. I now know my Cruiser very well.

Regarding DD, it's great, but not great. Gas mileage sucks, so I typically don't drive it to work unless it's going to rain. I have another beater for that purpose. As you know with your 60, Landcruisers aren't known for setting any speed records. That is one of the most difficult things for people to accept. Afterall, they have the aerodynamic qualities of a brick. I don't know how far you have to drive to work...but, I would consider trying to have some sort of commuter car. I know it's not always possible. This enables you to work on your ____ freely, and not worry about adding un-needed miles.

That said it has gotten us through Baja and back really comfortably. Along with some other difficult trails. The biggest drawback with the 80, or any wagon, is that you lose a bit of cargo capacity. Scott, and BajaTaco can carry more stuff than I can. But, when I do carry stuff I don't have to get out to access it from the bed. It sounds like you are already a wagon guy.


If you fix up your 60, we can just trade off every now and then.




Let me know if you need anything or just want to chat...Just shoot me a PM

 

[60seriesguy]

Based on your description, I would recommend an 80 series. With your budget, you can shoot for a clean late model one ('96-'97) and then spend the rest on some well-thought out modifications and making sure the truck's in top mechanical shape.

A 100 series isn't a bad option either, but the IFS is more complicated, and your budget for modifications will be less because of the initial outlay of cash.

 

[ChuckB]

Scott/Blupaddler/60seriesguy,

Thanks for the replies!! I think that you guys are all right, the common sense side of me says to get an 80 it will be the better overall package, its more capable right out of the box, has tons of aftermarket support etc etc.
The other half of my brain says you know you want another 60, you like that manual transmission you like that rough ride and you like those round headlights!! The one thing the 60 does have going for it is the simplicity, I think that the smartest component on their is my cd player. However, I'm not going to lie to myself, this vehicle is going to see a lot of road miles and I have to take that into account. I have driven the 60 cross-country from Rhode Island to SD and it wasn't that bad. My brother has a 97 80 and have driven cross country in that as well. I must say cruising down the freeway at 80mph with the cruise control on made the trip a little nicer than trying to go 65mph down hill with a tailwind in the 60...
The one thing that I do have on my side is time. This time I am not going to make a split second decision. Right now I'm currently in Iraq for few months. When i get home I am moving to Hawaii for 2 years and then will be coming back to San Diego. The 60 is going with me to Hawaii and it will be staying there. So upon my return to SD I will need a new ride, I will be cruiserless. You are probably saying, man this guying is worrying about something two years down the road from now. Yes I know, I guess I have OCD. So basically I have that long to research and plan out this project. I will probably start my search around the 18 month point. I agree it might be smart to take some of my budget and buy a beater that gets good mpg and keeps the miles off of the cruiser.

Blupaddler- I have lived in the SDSU area almost my entire life. My parents live in Del Cerro right across the 8 from SDSU. A couple years ago I bought a house in San Carlos right next to Cowles Mtn. I would love to go surfing sometime. Of course its going to have to wait until I get back from Iraq. Does your wife surf? I have been teaching my wife and she is starting to get the hang of it. I think when we get back from Hawaii she is going to be pro!! I would definitely like to meet you before I go to Hawaii and check out your 80. When I get back we should go wheelin together at one of the local spots out 8 East somewhere. I need to get broken in on some easy stuff :ar15:

(Edit) Henry I didn't know that was you at first. I have PM'd you a couple time on mud about your 4bt conversion. Just had my wife send out the latest issue of TT and read your article. Your 60 is amazing. Its your fault I still want a 60!!!!

 

[60seriesguy]

Scott/Blupaddler/60seriesguy,



(Edit) Henry I didn't know that was you at first. I have PM'd you a couple time on mud about your 4bt conversion. Just had my wife send out the latest issue of TT and read your article. Your 60 is amazing. Its your fault I still want a 60!!!!

Don't get me involved in this!

Seriously, note my recommendation. I am a diehard 60 series fan, but much of that stems from my passion for my own truck, I cannot dispute the logic of an 80 series. In fact, if they weren't so "blah", I wouldn't mind one to complement, not replace, the old green beast....

 

[ChuckB]

Henry,

I have read everything that I can about your 60. I know you are SOA. If I end up with a 60, I would like to go diesel. Most likely the motor would be MB OM617 or the IVECO diesel from TLC depending on $$$. This is all based on CA smog laws :box: I would probably go with the standard OME med/heavy or heavy/heavy for suspension. I think my lack of experience at this point leads me away from SOA. So other than suspension I would want my future sixty to basically mirror yours. Now that you have a diesel, toybox and h55f are there any signifcant down falls that you see in your 60 as an expedition rig? I wouldn't think so, but I just wanted to see if there is anything that you would still like to change. I think that if I buy a DD beater then I would lean toward a 60, as an 80 would serve better as a dual purpose vehicle.

The charm that the 60 has just keeps me thinking about how cool it would be to have a real clean one!

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Hi Chuck;

In this case I think I'm with you on leaning toward the 60. For $25k you could build a superbly equipped rust-free example, including a diesel and five-speed. You wouldn't have the power of a DOHC 80, but you'd get much better mileage. A proper suspension would smooth out the ride, again not to 80 levels but perfectly comfortable. I'm with Scott on the tires - going taller than 33" brings more downsides than benefits on an all-around expedition/DD vehicle. Same goes for the SOA conversion - no need to jack the thing skyward. Two or three inches of lift is plenty, and you don't mess up the factory alignments and driveshaft angles.

I'm also with you in thinking you'd be better off selling your current vehicle, no matter how sad it would be, and looking for a nice clean California example. Rust repair always costs at least twice what you initially estimate. Rust is like cockroaches: If you see some, there's a lot more hidden.

 

[ShottsCruisers]

Great job looking in the Cruiser forum for your application type!

You're $25K-30K wallet is what makes me pause before recommending. With that much on board, you're in the range of a 100-series, though is a 100 your best choice?

Expo-rig...I've got over $20K in my 1997 LX450 now, though it's done, short of working out vibrations and a chunk of the cost was for gears. A rig like this (though equipped more like DesertDudes...because of bumper choices), and re-geared, seems ideal to me overall in the price range.

I think the age, combined with older technology, lesser comfort, and the likes, pushes a 60 out of site, at least in my eyes.

Of course if I had my choice of which vehicle to take on a long run (like Baja) I wouldn't even blink as my 100 would go. You can ride for hours on end and not tire. The thing is much more solid than the 80/LX. Mileage is the same as an 80/LX and at the 105K mile mark is like brand new. The negative...cost...about $20K plus mods...and one mod that might be important for Expo needs is gearing. Cost right now is still high for the rear-end at about $2400 (because you swap 100 to 80 pumpkins and some other parts). Front end is same as an 80. Personally, my loaded V8 100 blasts a re-geared 80 (and even S/C and geared 80's) and I have no desire for more on-road power. I'd like gears to re-gain crawl but can't justify it. On a truck loaded to the gills (like Doron's) I'd want gears for sure.

Wow...I think on your budget an 80 gets fully outfitted and is newer and more durable than an aged 60. A 100 might be out of reach (when finished) depending on your plans.

Good luck!

 

[ShottsCruisers]

One last thought....your plans....Iraq (awesome, and hats off to you! :clapsmile ) then Hawaii, then a purchase.

In 2-3 years, the 100 option will be more tempting for certain. It's already hard to find a lower mileage 80. In 2-3 years? So, while it might not be your top choice now, I'd stay in tune with that series along the way. You might find it at the top of your list when ready.

 

[upcruiser]

First off, welcome to the forum. Having been a 60 series owner and now a current 80 series dork, I thought I'd chime in. So far my oppinion has been stated quite well in previous posts. The 60's are awesome rigs. For me the beauty was the mechanical simplicity, manual tranny, and the lack of bells and whistles. I had a Webber carb on it and desmogged it which gave it plenty of power and took away the whole hose farm look of the engine bay. Despite this though, the gearing was the biggest drawback when driving cross country. I didn't really mind though as I wasn't in a big hurry. But if I was commuting or using it daily in the mountains at elevation, I might have been a bit frustrated. One thing that I liked about the 60 versuse the 80 was the better useable interior space. The 60 does have more rear overhang which hurts its departure angle, but allows a good amount of lenght to sleep in the back comfortably. I'm a sleep in the rig kind of guy and with my 80, built a single person bed that is exactly 6 feet long. It uses every millimeter of space from the back hatch to the front passenger side seat in the truck. The only reason that I got rid of my 60 when I did was RUST. So, I understand your plight. Once it starts, it is SO damn hard to stop. I tried my best and lost the battle.

That being said though, the 80 series provides much more passenger comfort with better ability to soak up bumps (especially with an OME setup). The tradeoff is that you have more technology which makes things more complicated to trouble shoot on the trail. My truck is a 3FE powered '92. If you want a good compromise of technology with simplicity the '91's and '92's are nice, but the '93's plus have their own advantages which if used more as a daily driver, might be worth considering. I'm sure you know these differences already so I won't bother posting them.

Anyway, those are my oberservations.

 

[Mike S]

whaddya need?

Chuck:

So much depends on what you need for your applications. For a true expedition truck, a 60 is very hard to beat. Fast as a brick, but tough and simple as a brick. Can be jury rigged to run, aeasily repaired in the field, and no computers or OBD. I owned both a 40 and a 60, and have spend a lot of time in both. I now drive an 80, because it suits my current needs better. They are all marvelous trucks, but have different strengths.

As for how you set the truck up, wheeling is very different from expedition work. If you want a real back country traveling truck, do not be sucked into all kinds of high dollar mods that the rock crawling enthusiasts love. Keep it simple and unbreakable. Absolute mechanical reliability is the prime consideration. Ability to go anywhere is about YOU being prepared, as well as your vehicle. Plan what you need with the meticulous research that you mentioned, then get it done once - the right way.

Welcome.

Mike S

 

[Scott Brady]

As for how you set the truck up, wheeling is very different from expedition work. If you want a real back country traveling truck, do not be sucked into all kinds of high dollar mods that the rock crawling enthusiasts love. Keep it simple and unbreakable. Absolute mechanical reliability is the prime consideration. Ability to go anywhere is about YOU being prepared, as well as your vehicle. Plan what you need with the meticulous research that you mentioned, then get it done once - the right way.

Excellent post Mike :victory:

 

[60seriesguy]

A buddy of mine, another expedition hand from the old Venezuelan crew who now lives in CO and I are planning another 60 series build in the next few months that will be loosely based on my project, except that he's starting out with a perfect body and interior and a dead engine, that he picked up for less than $2K. Doing a similar drivetrain to mine (except using the NV4500), he's going to come in way under a $25K price ticket for a full-blown expedition rig.

My truck is NOT a great example of a true expedition rig because I've also incorporated features that allow it to tackle tougher trails, and a *real* expedition rig is built for dependability on long-range trips and mild trails.

If I had to start from scratch with NO truck, I'd buy a 96-97 FZJ80, the best example I could find (preferrably with lockers), then add a long-range fuel tank, front and rear bumpers, sliders, an OME suspension and whatever the equivalent to 33's are in a 16" rim (mounted on steel rims), cargo drawers and barrier, water tank, winch, some good quality lights, an INTI roof rack, branch deflectors, a CB, a GPS and an Engel fridge. That might be a stretch of the budget, but the benefit of this is that everything is pretty much bolt-on and I could do it myself, no custom work or one-offs. Once the truck had been gone over mechanically, it could handle pretty much anything you could throw at in North America.

Could you do this with a 60 series? Yes, but it would cost you more than $25 to get a 60 series to match the above 80 series in features/performance. And I am definitely with John Shotts on the consideration of a 100 series if you plan to wait a few years. Perhaps the BIGGEST problem with the 80 series Land Cruiser is that they have been driven more miles than any other LC series before it. Think about it, you stand a better chance of finding a late 60's FJ40 with 50K miles than you do of finding an 80 series with that kind of mileage, and the FJ40 is a lot more simple.

My personal preference is a 60 series but if I am asked to make a recommendation, I think an 80 series is a far better choice for your intended use and location (right there next to Baja...DROOL!).

 

[ChuckB]

WOW, this is a lot of great advice! But, I'm so lost now... I'm glad that I have a while to make this decision. My biggest problem is keeping myself from making an emotional decision (ie going with the 60 and diesel). I guess I should caveat this by saying that the only way I really want to stay with a 60 is if I have a diesel... otherwise its probably not worth it.

If I was to say that if I bought an 80, I'd be willing to spend the money rebuilding the motor(given high miles). Would that change any of the 60/100 people toward the 80?? And when I say rebuild, I mean ala Slee, Mudrak, 4x4labs etc... as well as go through all the mechanicals.

These are my options for base vehicle as I seem them now (no bling mods):

1) '81-85 FJ60 (smog limited) - Diesel motor (OM 617 or Iveco), 5sp (H55 or NV4500), Long Range(or Aux) Fuel tank (rear bumper tire carrier if made necessary by fuel tank), Toybox?

2) '91-92 FJ80 - 3FE, (conversion to 5sp), Long Range(or Aux) Fuel tank (rear bumper tire carrier if made necessary by fuel tank)

3) '93-97 FZJ80 - 1FZ (rebuilt), (possible tacoma 6sp??), Long Range(or Aux) Fuel tank (rear bumper tire carrier if made necessary by fuel tank), factory lockers if found

4) '98-99 UZJ100 (Price limited right now...) - 2UZ, Long Range(or Aux) Fuel tank (rear bumper tire carrier if made necessary by fuel tank), factory rear locker

That's what I'm looking at right now. Here's how I see it. If I can't go diesel #1 is out, depending on feasibility of FZJ80 with 6spd and $$$ then #2 would be gone so I'd be down to just 3 or 4. That is a tough choice 3 or 4 even if 3 is still an auto tranny.

Curveball, if I can convince the boss that her next vehicle should be a 100 then I'm back to the drawing board... What do you guys think now???

PS - Kristian, we need to talk about your 944... I sold my '93 300ZX right before I left on deployment. I've always been a Porsche fan and wouldn't mind a 951 or S2. My dream though is a 993 C4S.