Full Size - Small Diesels: why so unpopular?

[lumpskie]

The reason those trucks do run 500,000-750,000 miles is probably BECAUSE they are hot-shot trucks, not in spite of it. They are getting worked, their DPF's are nice and toasty, they can regen without interruption, and their oil stays hot and can burn off contaminants.

I bet its the guys who use their 6.7L diesel with 1000 ft-lbs of torque to get groceries and drive to work that end up having issues prematurely. They never get the DPF's hot enough to properly regen and then they clog up and crap out.

There is a running theory on the F150 Ecoboost forums about this exact thing. The observation has been that the trucks which are run the hardest are also the ones that last the longest without issues. There was a guy with a 2011 3.5L Ecoboost that hit 400k miles and the only issue he had was a bad throttle body. The dude towed a trailer every single day for work.

I am gunna go out on a limb and suggest that 99% of diesel half tons get used for groceries and work commutes. I see a lot of Ecodiesels around here, a couple of F150 PSD's, but none of them are ever hooked up to a trailer.

I see your point and somewhat agree. But, I wouldn't go so far as to say that you need to work the engine hard to get that kind of lifespan out of them. You just need to get the engine/exhaust up to temperature and a 5 mile drive at 30 mph won't typically do that. A 15 or 20 mile highway drive will, however... and you only really need to do it once or twice a week for the system to work well. In my time with the Ram, I have only encountered a couple of regen cycles. In each case, I hadn't take the truck onto the freeway in something close to a month.

 

[lumpskie]

I don't think anybody question the magnificence of the 6.7 Cummins here.
The discussion is about the small halftons diesels which of course lack the longevity of the larger diesels or se we are told.

As far as the small diesels go it is clear, in these thread at least that some people have had a great use of it and some have hated it.

I understand what you are saying here. I wanted to respond to the perception that modern diesel emissions will fail and that modern diesels aren't reliable. Regarding the quality of diesels that are both smaller and modern, I can't say. I can say that my small but older 1HDT diesel has about 300,000 miles on it and is built to the same standards that my Cummins is. It is an industrial engine which is overbuilt for it's output. I can also say that I have a friend with a Colorado diesel. His transmission has given him issues, but his engine has been flawless.

When I was pickup shopping, I really wanted to get a 1/2 ton truck with a diesel. I liked the 30mpg of the ecodiesel but was scared off by stories on the internet. Combining that fear with my desire to pull my boat as well as a car hauler, I decided to go with a Cummins rig. I am really happy with my decision and love this truck. But, I do think I was scared off a little prematurely from the 1/2 ton diesels.

 

[Explorerinil]

I would love to have a zr2 diesel truck, but I need the room with a wife and kid so that’s not an option. Half tons have never appealed to me as I need the payload, so I don’t think it’s the half ton diesels that are not popularI think it’s the half tons… most people that buy a diesel also want towing and payload capabilities. Plus with $5 a gallon diesel that will turn more buyers awa.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

I am gunna go out on a limb and suggest that 99% of diesel half tons get used for groceries and work commutes. I see a lot of Ecodiesels around here, a couple of F150 PSD's, but none of them are ever hooked up to a trailer.

Mine get's used for a work commute lol.

I'd go out on a limb and say that's 99% of any half ton truck, regardless of fuel type.

They're commuters that can take a boat to the lake or haul a camper, they are not toting dump trailers of asphalt daily, at least not new.

Which is why I love my Ecodiesel lol. It get's 24 mpg taking me back and forth to work, it's comfy to sit in for me, it's a "nice" vehicle with satellite radio and a heated wheel, etc etc, and when I want to do small tasks, like go to Oklahoma from Michigan to pick up a rust free cab, I can do so without taking out a loan for fuel

I'm about to go on a 2,000 mile or so trip, and I'll still get 20 mpg or so. If this thing was a Hemi 1/2 ton, it may as well be a Hemi 3/4 ton for the mileage difference between the two, and I likely wouldn't be making the trip because of the price of gas.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

I would love to have a zr2 diesel truck, but I need the room with a wife and kid so that’s not an option. Half tons have never appealed to me as I need the payload, so I don’t think it’s the half ton diesels that are not popularI think it’s the half tons… most people that buy a diesel also want towing and payload capabilities. Plus with $5 a gallon diesel that will turn more buyers awa.

Payload is my issue as well. I don't require a 3/4 - 1 ton as a half ton with around 1,800 works for me.

For the deal breakers are diesel is much more expensive than 87 octane and the maintenance costs are higher for diesel.

Not too worried about the extra up front cost of the engine as I think it would mostly be recouped when it's sold.

 

[skrypj]

Mine get's used for a work commute lol.

I'd go out on a limb and say that's 99% of any half ton truck, regardless of fuel type.

They're commuters that can take a boat to the lake or haul a camper, they are not toting dump trailers of asphalt daily, at least not new.

Which is why I love my Ecodiesel lol. It get's 24 mpg taking me back and forth to work, it's comfy to sit in for me, it's a "nice" vehicle with satellite radio and a heated wheel, etc etc, and when I want to do small tasks, like go to Oklahoma from Michigan to pick up a rust free cab, I can do so without taking out a loan for fuel

I'm about to go on a 2,000 mile or so trip, and I'll still get 20 mpg or so. If this thing was a Hemi 1/2 ton, it may as well be a Hemi 3/4 ton for the mileage difference between the two, and I likely wouldn't be making the trip because of the price of gas.

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I agree on the 99% thing. But the gassers dont have DPF's and Urea and all the other goodies. So they are likely more immune to short tripping and not getting up to temperature. The ecoboost is not totally immune to it either but its as simple as just changing the oil more often if you do short trip it a lot to get any fuel dilution and soot out of there.

But is your truck actually cheaper to drive? 24 MPG sounds impressive but AAA says the average cost in the US for diesel is 92 cents more than regular gasoline right now. So the average person has to get 22% better mpg out of a diesel just to break even, never mind cover the cost to upgrade to the diesel during purchase. Its likely you do get more tha 22% better mpg vs a gasser, but you're still talking single digit lower cost at the pump. Thats not worth the loss in power or potential reliability to me.

This is regional of course. I think my diesel prices are a bit closer to gas here, but still, that weeds out at least 50% of the population from seeing any dramatic benefit to running a diesel purely for economics, which is the whole point of a 1/2 ton diesel.

The main reason I don't really care to look at them is HP. I tow a travel trailer around UT, WY, ID, MT and CO and I have been stuck in headwinds where I believe a 2nd gen Ecodiesel would almost have to be floored just to keep my trailer rolling on flat ground. My Ecoboost does it at 3500 rpm, but I have 100+ hp in reserve for hills. The 3rd gen EcoD with 260hp would be a little better, and the 3.0 Duramax with 278 would be a lot better, but still its close. I think this is why I almost never see the EcoD's or PSD's with trailers.

 

[Jrgunn5150]

The main reason I don't really care to look at them is HP. I tow a travel trailer around UT, WY, ID, MT and CO and I have been stuck in headwinds where I believe a 2nd gen Ecodiesel would almost have to be floored just to keep my trailer rolling on flat ground. My Ecoboost does it at 3500 rpm, but I have 100+ hp in reserve for hills. The 3rd gen EcoD with 260hp would be a little better, and the 3.0 Duramax with 278 would be a lot better, but still its close. I think this is why I almost never see the EcoD's or PSD's with trailers.

My truck dyno'd at 275 hp and 525 ft/lbs of tq on my lower tune, and and 296 and 565 on the higher tune lol. Power isn't an issue for it. Again, if I wanted to really tow something significant, I'd use my 3/4 ton.

As for cost of fuel, yes, I save money on it, have the entire life of the vehicle vs a gas truck at 17-18 mpg. Which was the point of the purchase, or I could have just kept my old truck and saved 40k.

 

[Todd n Natalie]

The ecoboost is not totally immune to it either but its as simple as just changing the oil more often if you do short trip it a lot to get any fuel dilution and soot out of there.

What do you mean by this? Not totally immune to what? Curious as my next truck will be an EcoBoost.

 

[tacollie]

I guess it depends. Here diesel is almost a dollar more than regular. 22mpgs vs 17mpgs is $25 for a 2000 mile trip. Your delete must really help. My buddies 16' ED struggles to see 22mpgs and 18 is not uncommon. Our county does emission testing on diesels. Plus RAM put a new long block in at 46k miles and he doesn't want to risk the warranty?

He paid under $30k when you factor in the $3300 check RAM cut him for the emissions scandal. That's a killer deal!

 

[Jrgunn5150]

My delete made no difference at all to my mileage, literally didn't move the needle a bit.

Diesel is 1.00 more per gallon here as well currently.

We can go back and forth forever, I'm really happy with my truck, when I buy a new truck, it will be another small diesel, not a single complaint in the world. That's really it lol.

 

[skyfree]

My experience with small diesels has been stellar. Coming from a VW Touareg 3.0 diesel which was 100% problem free for 6 years and 117,000 miles, I got a Chevy Colorado ZR2 2.8 Duramax. Currently 70,000 miles and zero problems. I run a scangauge and regens have been in the 200-400 mile range. I run larger tires, a front 1.5" level, and a camper on there 100% of the time and it always seems to get 21-22 MPG no matter what I do with it. 400+ miles of range off-road is easy fully loaded for many days of camping. I'm running at basically GVWR at that 182 hp engine is working hard all the time.

There is a myth about extra maintenance cost and I think the answer to that is "it depends". I do all my own oil changes and fuel filter changes. It's super easy and fast on this truck. Because of that my 4 1/2 year done-at-dealer maintenance cost has been a grand total of $1,100 when I had Chevy do the diff oil changes, transmission fluid change, coolant flush, and brake fluid. These are all things that a gasser has to do as well. That's about what a spark plug job on our V8 Audi costs. The only "extra" maintenance cost is the fuel filter changes which are every 40K.

 

[ngs352]

I won’t be doing a full build, but I just purchased a 2022 Limited with the EcoDiesel as it checks every single box for me, so there are plenty of us out there that like and use the small diesels.



Previously, I had the Grand Cherokee with the ecodiesel, and had 80,000 trouble free miles before I unfortunately had to get rid of it. I couldn’t be happier now that I finally have the Ram.

The EcoDiesel needs to be viciously (ab)used. The common theme I see among those encountering problems are those that baby them. Let er eat. The Jeep was incredible for towing, at least how I utilized it. I had a motorcycle trailer, an enclosed trailer, a car trailer, and finally a UTV trailer at one point. Towing with those loads was a dream, at least 13 mpg, and plenty of torque. Stick it in 6th gear up a long grade with a gross weight over 10,000 and it wouldn‘t lose any speed. I’d always smile when I blew by a HD diesel with a relatively small load doing 50 up the hill for whatever reason. For my commute, I would easily get 26+ mph just cruising, but combined around town I’ll admit the mileage wasn’t great between 21-23. I also did some wheeling in the Jeep, but it lacked overall capacity, and when I went the Can Am route for offroading it no longer made sense to risk my passenger vehicle or dump money into the Jeep.

Would I like a Ram 4500? Yes absolutely someday when I have a need for all the capacity, and when I have tens of thousands of dollars to throw at all the overlanding bits. My buddy has a 2500 with the snugtop, but 99% of the time he doesn’t need the capability, and then the 2 times he’s put a massive load on he’s maxing out the rear coil springs as well. The ride and refinement are not stellar for day to day, it’s incredibly heavy off road and sinks in easier, and he averages 16 mpg.

The cost of running an EcoDiesel is quite low for me. So far I’m averaging about 22 mpg with the Ram, but on a long trip it’s closer to 26-27. I optioned the 33 gallon fuel tank, which means its not impossible to inch towards the 1000 mile range, which is really a huge selling point for me. Inside, I’ve got space for 4 grown adult males to spread out, and with 4 ventilated seats everyone is in complete comfort here in the southwest. No need to stop at gas stations, just pull over, take a leak, jump back in, and keep rolling. Adaptive cruise makes getting out of socal a breeze, and once the road opens up I just loaf along all day. The truck bed gives me plenty of space for camping gear, arms, snowboards, etc. I have a snugtop on order with the Yakima cross bars, so I plan on throwing a skybox on top for soft goods, which means the dog can come in the bed or I can bring more stuff. Nothing I’m bringing is going to max out the payload, and if it does oh well because - I have the air suspension so I’m not worried about squat if I go a few pounds over.

If you haven’t tried one of these trucks with the air suspension, you are missing out. It absolutely does not ride like a truck, which means it is wifey approved. Finally, my other vehicles are V8s that take premium gas, so I’m no stranger to paying lots for fuel, but it seems like a waste for road tripping/over landing. One is German, and when it needs service it can get very pricey. Basically the only costs associated with the diesels are upfront, fuel filters, and def.

Everyone gravitates towards the Rebel, but with these trucks there are multiple trims that accomplish the same thing. I wanted a certain look and some gizmos, all I’m really missing is a locker and some skid plates, which can be added later. I don’t intend to wheel, but I can get off the beaten path with ease. Also with the air suspension, two button presses provide over 10” of ground clearance, and I have the best on and off road.

TL;DR - the Ram EcoDiesel is a dream, and as a second time 3.0 owner don’t trust the keyboard warriors. What are you gonna do, idle your gasser on the trails and at the gas station in 115 degree heat? This is the S class of trucks, while being able to do it all.

If you can afford the 2500 fuel costs, have a large payload or towing requirement, and want a “truck,” that is a better bet, but its more to manage on and off road.

Oh and if you’re even shopping midsize (specifically the gassers) you’re either insane, small, or have a specific use. Nothing makes me grin more than seeing a Taco that can’t hold 65 up a 3% grade, while I never downshift from 8th at 80mph.

 

[ngs352]

I would love my next rig to be a diesel for two reasons:

1) Range

2) The "magic" or "Mystique" that others have mentioned that tends to come with the idea of a diesel. Off road trucks, to some degree, feel like they just should have the rattle of a diesel coming from under the hood, in the same way a Triumph Triple just should whistle as you wind it up.

The second is a perfectly fine reason to buy a car -- people buy totally impractical high performance sports cars all the time based purely on 2) -- but when it gets right down to it, is that "magic" worth nearly $10 grand added to the purchase price? I think not.

The first is a compelling advantage to diesel, but the differences are minimal. In most of the segment, a gas motor and a couple of jerry cans (80 lbs of added weight, far less than the typical payload hit taken by upgrading to a diesel) will go just as far as any diesel on the same platform. And, while in a diesel you always have to think of DEF, in a gasser, the extra range of that couple of Jerry's is mostly irrelevant in most of North America - gas stations, as another poster said, are ubiquitous everywhere, and even the most remote roads on the continent require a range of 300 kms max. So, for the once-in-a-while need for the extra range, a couple of jerry cans is more practical than a diesel which has DEF needs every day.

I have goals to travel internationally so for that, a diesel is not useful because of the high sulphur fuel issues, but if I was swimming in cash, there would be a diesel Gladiator, JL, or AT4 Canyon/ZR2 Bison in my driveway by the end of the day to use as a runabout based on number 2) alone. But I'm not, so there won't be.

Spot on. I just posted about this, but you nailed it. My someday truck is a Ram 4500 flatbed with a Can Am or a camper on it, and 200 gallons of diesel on board. Think about fueling up once a month. My 1500 EcoDiesel with 33 gallons basically means I can do San Diego to Vegas and back on a tank and maybe a splash. I think mystique isn‘t just nebulous, I don’t worry about heat and idling in my truck, I just know that once it’s on it’s going to do exactly what I ask it to.

 

[ngs352]

I agree on the 99% thing. But the gassers dont have DPF's and Urea and all the other goodies. So they are likely more immune to short tripping and not getting up to temperature. The ecoboost is not totally immune to it either but its as simple as just changing the oil more often if you do short trip it a lot to get any fuel dilution and soot out of there.

But is your truck actually cheaper to drive? 24 MPG sounds impressive but AAA says the average cost in the US for diesel is 92 cents more than regular gasoline right now. So the average person has to get 22% better mpg out of a diesel just to break even, never mind cover the cost to upgrade to the diesel during purchase. Its likely you do get more tha 22% better mpg vs a gasser, but you're still talking single digit lower cost at the pump. Thats not worth the loss in power or potential reliability to me.

This is regional of course. I think my diesel prices are a bit closer to gas here, but still, that weeds out at least 50% of the population from seeing any dramatic benefit to running a diesel purely for economics, which is the whole point of a 1/2 ton diesel.

The main reason I don't really care to look at them is HP. I tow a travel trailer around UT, WY, ID, MT and CO and I have been stuck in headwinds where I believe a 2nd gen Ecodiesel would almost have to be floored just to keep my trailer rolling on flat ground. My Ecoboost does it at 3500 rpm, but I have 100+ hp in reserve for hills. The 3rd gen EcoD with 260hp would be a little better, and the 3.0 Duramax with 278 would be a lot better, but still its close. I think this is why I almost never see the EcoD's or PSD's with trailers.

You‘re correct about power. With my EcoDiesel Jeep I had a 18 foot enclosed trailer that I used for moving, but kept it to transport motorcycles from Corpus up to San Antonio hill country to ride. Its basically uphill the whole way, with a 30 mph head wind straight down the interstate. Yes, I had my foot literally pinned the entire time. It would hunt 5-6th gear but it held ~72 mph and kept trucking. Only got about 8 mpg, a bigger motor would’ve done better, but it did it without complaint.

 

[calicamper]

Good question
I like diesels but I can’t have a car/truck that has diesel power. Far too many short local only trips no joke pick one I’d have a Christmas tree dash of errors and emissions issues 12months into having one. The alternative is a hybrid electric which case now with my solar on my house? Hell yes..

Even my Boat which has a fantastic 1986 Kubota 11hp diesel. When its time to pull it for a rebuild it’s getting replaced with electric. Its a sailboat, I burned 5 gallons of diesel between 2018 and December 2021. We sail 2-3 times a month often times more.